Marketing Against The Grain

if twenty twenty five was a year of ai agents twenty twenty six is the year of fully autonomous agents we have nate foley from complexity who has built an entire rev ops team using autonomous agents built with complexity computer these are some of the most powerful fully autonomous workflows on the web for how you can scale your go to market all of that and more on this episode of market against the greeting welcome to the episode eight we are really excited to have you on here you are going to show us how you have used per plan city computer to build a fully ai rev ops team you are a team of one with a whole army of ai agents built all through per complexity computer why didn't you give our audience a little introduction to per complexity computer and just why it so powerful in terms of doing this work yeah thanks for having me on so perplexing computer is a fully agent multi model orchestra that leverages the best ai models to do end to end work for you i'm excited to show you what it looks like this is a dashboard that was built based on our customer information with complexity computer helps me get very close to our customers needs this is one example of what complexity computer has built for me and our operations team i'm gonna show you how to build this and how to work best with the perplexing computer okay i'm lucky that i've had a bit of a pre look at the workflow that nate gonna share in terms of how he runs his go to market operations and his rev up teams he's gonna share some of the best workflows you're ever going to see from a rev ops go to market perspective and how you can use and leverage these autonomous agents like per practicality computer all of that is coming up in this episode you were going to actually show us a bunch of cool use cases and how you use per complexity computer specifically to actually run a lot of your go to market i think you talk to one of my good friends and how it's about rich he was pretty blown away by all of the things you're doing with perplexed it's like an entire kind of rev ops team and so am i excited to look at some of the use cases and how you kinda use your own tool to run the business awesome well thanks for beyond i'm a big fan of the pod and excited to share some of our use cases nate maybe just for the tee up here so people get the impact of all workflows you're gonna show how big is your team today in because you're using perplexed to do a lot these use cases and then their prior life what kind of size of team would you need to do all the things you're doing trying to give people like to scale of how much complexity computer is actually doing for your org so my team is one right now so that that includes rev ops essentially enable some data analysis work admin for crm and and other tools as well as procurement for tools and then just the strategy behind that as well for the enterprise team i was at ramp before this we had a team of six and that was just strictly systems folks under the ops team and then on the the go to market kind of revenue operations side we had a host of other folks that that were aligned to different sales team so yeah computer has vastly changed the way that that we work and just the volume of output speed that we can deploy the projects and and test new experiments and they go to market space so in a prior world a kinda team size would be maybe between ten and fifteen to do the kinda work that you're doing and now your team is that you and a bunch of per perplexed agents computer agents which is that by the way is my dream if i can live in a world where i'm a team of one eventually i think that will be a great day how does it change your relationship to your work like you're working i primarily with ai versus like building teams i i think i was talking some folks at hubspot my work today looks nothing like it did a year ago yeah in that just the breadth of what i can cover it's very stimulating just to understand like okay building a account plan used to be a very long collaborative effort now with the help of computer and the network that i can draw from and talk to other folks and then just entering all that information and consolidating you know what we do to build this how can we back test it things like that that would have taken months or are taking now days to get by and and deploy and there is still a work with humans so it's not all all whole day there's there's a lot of c working that's that's being done but no it's it's it's a lot of fun if you're enjoying this episode and you want all of the resources you can click the link in the description or scan the qr code to get them all delivered to your inbox okay so this really is the episode for you if you wanna see what a true agent rev ops team is in the future there's probably going to be like fully ai rev ops team with someone like you who's kind of the orchestra of those ai agents so i wanna make sure i give everyone like to set up and how you should think about this episode maybe we can go into your first workflow and look to see you know an example of the kind of things that you're doing so one workflow i want to walk through is case that i find really helpful is thoughtful work so work that i would like to bounce ideas off the number of people i usually reach out to people in my network like rich over hubspot a few folks there to get their opinions but i also i'd like to not trust one model so i've talked to a lot of people that will jump over to clog see what the output is somewhat trust it and then maybe jump over to gemini or or chat and to get another answer complexity does that automatically and it's just through something we call model counsel computer you can prompt it to to ask any model for for answers that you'd like and compare and contrast them so i really like this model counsel skill for thoughtful work like hey we'd like to host an exec dinner look through all the data that we have available in our crm and let's pick a city so starting this prompt off we'll kind of review all the information that we're connected to i will come out with an output here that i can show which i i think is super useful so it we'll show at the top here where models agree mh so the check is here and and the evidence of why they agree who they should target chicago carries a single rep concentration risk a lot of chicago deals are owned by one person but it's obviously pulling from tools to know where you have deals and what stage you're at in quality of deals is it connected is that just pulling all from your crm correct yes yeah okay yep so that was part of the prompt tiers that went with look through my team's open opportunities crm around yeah and yes so that i think that's super important because yeah if you just go third party data or or what what is the data say it's it's less relevant to your work and we can see kind of how this is is working i asked just to pull together an output that would be simple to review and i also asked for the latest models to go review here and it will give you know a detailed output you can have this in any format you'd like broken down by where the models agree disagree and unique findings for each of those they have sometimes different lenses on what they care about yeah that's one of the advantages or complexity it's like model agnostic what have you asked it to basically do that but then also plan at the outreach to get these folks to actually join the dinner like will it'll be able to thread together who are the current contacts you have in your crm and then based upon that what is like a good outreach campaign for them so this is where it starts you get information from from these different models with all the information that that you care about with these invites and then we we just launched a connection with apollo we have a number of different connections with with you know obviously hubspot for for sending out these invites and not only can it pick the audience through enrichment tools but it can actually make the the copy and insert the c or campaigns directly into those emailing tools so i've actually two line built full apollo sequences and added the relevant contacts to those with the right sender for those people so that can be done all within if someone was looking at this and they were like okay this is pretty incredible like i had perplexed start to do a bunch of this kind of work how do you build up your confidence level in terms of how autonomous do you allowed the agent to be let's take this end to an example which is pull data from crm then find best places to actually have exact dinners based upon open deals probably some sort of deal stage and quality data ingest and it's doing then you could say hey like okay cool like you figure out how to like get these folks at the dinner right like you figure out who i've got the contacts for based upon the contacts personalized emails and invite those folks to this dinner and appeal to whatever would appeal to them and you just do it all and send it that is like the kinda you know optimal way to do it but there's like this kind of trust factor you kind you build up with ai models like you know how i trust it to do this oh now it's done a good job of that now i trust it to do this all the way to like you just do it all and you could ask per p computer to do all that and then likely email you the results that they come in right because the complexity computer can run on a continual basis so it can just keep checking in to see how that campaign is doing right i'm not over selling it when a buyer ai for a solution link yours do you know if you're showing up or not and hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot au you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you could show up even more exactly so so this would then we we translate this over to a skill and we can run a a weekly job or yeah yeah on this skill to say let's look at the past events what the performance was and every monday do an end to end skill which is essentially where should we have a dinner this month build the entire campaign for us and then ping our events team yeah say hey this campaign is queued up the people are in it's ready to send we've got a place for dinner picked out and and we're ready to to hit go on this so that's kind of where we start is right i typically have started with something simple and then it grows into an end to end flow where i have my check ins as to when to approve when to review and then at any point we can kinda change the audience change the city change the messaging etcetera but once this is always on it turns into a thirty minute check of like oh let's just approve this each each week versus let's do a whole and end project that takes a lot of time there's so many different cohorts of folks in terms of how they think about ai right now that everyone's experience is somewhat different like you and i are in the weeds and so we're like for the most part ai do whatever you can do and just check in with us but you i think you give a pretty good framework on like how you can actually get to that point which is i would always think of an end to end work which i think you you have said like there's an end to end workflow and then you're gonna break into stages and you're gonna check each stage to see if you're happy with the quality so you're gonna say okay well first of all pull back the data around the dinners and give me the logic of why you chose those group ends and you're like like pretty good logic actually you your logic is a little ride there fix that do it again and then yeah that's great go to the next part and you go to the next part and then you do that until you get to the end and then what you're saying is once you got end you've kinda had those quality checks you're happy you can just run an autonomously actually you package it up into a skill you run it as a crime job and you have quote unquote a little worker so you've gone from like reactive agent who's doing things as you're talking to it to a proactive agent that's just doing work for you and is probably checking in with you to send you an update on slack or in email of how things are going exactly yep and it gets smarter and smarter as the models improve and as our ecosystem of connectors gets broader and as you add more context layers above your your crm and things so so that's exactly how i'm thinking about it i probably have tens if not maybe hundreds of recurring jobs in the rev ops world to to just continuously run each week whether it's looking at attribution and how these things went or sharing proactive meetings that's something that that we do quickly and it's not only rev ops anymore so in the past just a quick tangent here is it used to be one rev ops leader would have to control some of these flows one quick example of that is we have a finance lead that want to jump on some of our finance calls in the past you might ask for alerts or report to get notified regularly this is just a a two line prompt today so we just ask computer send a slack channel alert when when our sales team books a new meeting with a finance company of a certain size and he could jump on those calls little things like that that maybe a year ago used to take a quick and take meeting a ticket to to resolve computer can do really quickly when we just touch on the visibility park because this is like one of the things i see a lot of people struggling with which is you mentioned you a whole kind of team of little mini rev ops folks through per doing things what is your like dashboard like how do you manage them all and maybe per it's going to build something at some that makes this much easier but like do you have a little dashboard where you can like kick off your workflows see how they're all going you know what what's your control panel yes so i have my pinned flows in computer and then i also have formatted slack kinda summary that that i get through a computer that attaches every single day with with the things that i care about so my control panel is computer it's kind of where i do most of my work whether it be in slack through the computer channel or or the threads directly in in complexity but what does it look like in perplexed of the way you're pin them so i'm diving into complexity here you asked kind of how i prioritize the work and what i what i see so i can see at the top here everything that needs attention and i can collapse these sections if i need to some of my schedule jobs that are running and then pinned work just sorted by day and so this is how it kind of keep my pinned items handy that that are often schedule jobs and i also have dashboards that are built directly in you know hosted apps that are built through complexity so sales pipeline for instance i've actually built what i think is interesting at super pac of skills that i'll share we can maybe link out to it these are all skills that you can choose your own tech stack here and then it will build agents for you essentially so based on your role so rev ops we can have a few of these that that you can just copy these prompts in and run them as recurring skills within complexity so i use most of these as kind of my sub agents and our team on the sales side uses these regularly as well this is another thing that i think folks are really trying to understand which is how do you have a shared set of skills across teams and one of the challenges right now is it's somewhat the messy middle of ai heavy companies an ai sp you know ai is being democrat we all want people to be a ai native but it means everyone's kind building their own skills and doing their own thing and there's not like a shared kind of this is the best in class skill to do that right so everyone in sells just use a skill it's been evaluated we know it's the best we've proven it and so this is like the skill for this use case and so you kinda need a shared skills repository that has had the e eval on probably have some sort of ob abilities so you can see does it correlate to actual results is this an internal thing or you've actually done this for external like external folks and go here and get this i had built a number of skills internally and i ask computer to look at what i've built what other kind of leaders like yourself have have built or talked about people on your podcast for instance and built this in a way that it can be used externally copied and paste it over so this is based on how i work as well as other kind of rev ops and and sales leaders that's right we've heard just from a number of customer conversations is this is so broad i want it to do everything i where i start and in sales i think this is a really great place to start how do you think about the shared skills internally like do you build skills for the sales team and then deploy them for the sales skill or like how do you think about that problem which is how do we make sure that teams are using best in class skills i can actually share our skills library here but this is awesome so this is like you're kind of to do a for agents right yep exactly it's like your productivity tool for agents the other thing some some of these threads get relatively long once i i noticed that something's getting long i will just create it as a skill typically and then run that skill regularly yeah and so that's where i get the most value out of skills so of course there's template out of the box skills that work for a lot of companies those over time you know need to change or evolve based on changing needs of the company so oftentimes i say you know review all of my skills see what's changed whether it's head count and different people the company or different organizations and update my skills or suggest updates to my skills yeah one of the things i've kinda of started doing is i used call coded a little bit so i don't know if it's the exact same complexity but you can put in the hook so when i shut down it will create a file of like what i did and then basically suggest recur patterns that could actually be better implemented in the skill and so like basically having a way that you compress what you do in these models and then it suggests itself what what you should turn into skills because you just continue to do that thing and it'll be if you just had it all prep packaged skill i love that idea by the way just did the ongoing improvement i have that regularly every friday is how can i improve my my writing in slack so it looks at how i write in slack and then what work that i'm working on is the most impactful to drive forward each week that way just you know validates usually what i'm working on but it ensures that i i i'm not skipping things that really should be worked on each week and because it's connected to all of our sources it and what what i have in cl code is like you know how when you're working with a during long sessions that will compress the contacts to because it's getting too long and so i have a hook that intercept that and so when it compresses the context it pushes it to a log file and then something that will parse the log file for repeatable patterns nice so i'm gonna a demo account here i just want to walk through our our skills library and so we have my skills which i can create often these are created from a thread i say you know save this as a skill and then we can up level those to org skills so things that we always want every everybody the company to have available we can share those may also have some example skills here so lightweight in the demo org i think but we do have a number of skills in our live production org and it's growing list every single day of of of skills that have been created let's say you had a prospecting in skill do you build the best in class prospect in skill for your sales reps and then mandated it or do you basically say hey like go wild build whatever your your sales rep you have access to the tool build whatever prospect and skill you think is the best my take on this is i do build something to as a starting point and oftentimes we have improvements every single week so people are sharing in doing wild so to speak and and building their own skills sharing them with other team members and we ask that that people you know dog food our product try to build things that work for them and share with the team so i do build things like pipeline hygiene lead leakage check through any emails that i should be following up on any stale deals that that we should re engage and making sure that our hygiene is there and then that the customers are getting the support from our sales team is needed so there some centralized skills that have been shared with the team but also there's some really cool ones that people have built like hey let's look through my transcripts and figure out what a really cool gift someone might want from per complexity swag or let's look at you know customer testimonials that could be good from this last week or or quotes that we could pull out from calls so everybody on the team is developing cool skills and sharing and then we usually harden them and share them across the entire org once once they get to that level okay cool that's a very cool workflow what would be a another thing you would kind of recommend other rev ops teams to to be used computer for so one workflow i wanted to walk through is backfill filling crm which is probably everybody's favorite thing to do as an analyst so in this use case we have a number of contracts or data living in different places so we have a drive folder with with older contracts one of the first things i did when i joined prop complexities look through our past deals and then i wanted to make sure our crm reflected reality so and the past would be you know a bunch of manual work looking through individual contracts but with computer we have over two hundred connectors in a growing ecosystem so you can pull from a number of different sources in this use case i pulled from google drive we also have an iron cloud connection if folks use a cl and the goal i put here is to ensure that all signed contracts are representatives as opportunities but with the relevant contacts amounts close dates opportunities line items etcetera and make sure that we're reconciling that information now this is a great one off use case it's also a use case that i see come up maybe quarterly or every month or so on rev ops teams to say like hey let's see how many people are on auto renew let's get another data point into our crm how many people have you know natural uplift in their their contract it's so different contract information that really just doesn't live in a crm is often asked to be pulled so here in complexity you can choose your orchestra and then going through these tasks it will kinda navigate and orchestrate to choose the right models to do the work so kicking this off you can really specify your output as it goes through it will pull and attach to the crm different opportunity so i can i could link out to the ops there and then i want an export report so i'll pull out the report of what it did how many you need manual review how many were generated what their opportunity ids were and this is a collaborative work so it can work for hours on its own and then you know if you need a different output you can ask for different outputs there and so this is one that you know just did a demo example just of the a handful of deals but this with hundreds of deals actually works at scale so this could work for hours on its own and then the output can be in any format there is the element of human review as well i may ask it to not auto upload anything until given the approval and then adding an excel file it can actually execute those uploads as well for you and the real use case is it updating your actual crm or like so basically it will go through start to re enrich all the data itself within the crm it can work pretty autonomously lead for hours the other note that'll i'll add is that this kinda meets you where you are so if i like to use slack i can run all this in a slack channel that shared with other folks on our team and then tag them in and say hey does this look accurate to you is this contract correct for this account etcetera you've shown a lot of cool things maybe to run this out is there like one flow that you've built or one skill that you've built or one perplexed agent that you've built via computer that is the one that you would recommend every rev ops team who is wanna try out this is the one they would build yes i think the main one that i've loved is our voice of customer dashboard and this refreshes is every single day and what it does is it pulls transcripts and and understands one how are we showing up to our customers what's resonating with our customers and prospects and then two what's important for rev ops team is what should we do about it so we have these sections for customer love what are the key themes and then what should our product team do about it and then what should our enable team do about it so these are the parts that not only are we extracting things and kind of reading the news of what's happening and keeping a pulse but we're suggesting things that i can do and and my team can do and our product team can do to get better this was all built with complexity computer based on transcript information and emails so basically you're like you're ingesting all your customer transcripts what feedback you're again and and then you're dis filling it into like a core dashboard and then actually strategically rat into the different teams and what parts of this they should actually they have responsibility for and they can improve that's exactly and then because this you know is so prescriptive we can dig into each section so it's just one more query to say hey we're we found these really cool use cases across this legal space for instance let's work with our marketing team to understand and get some customer stories or get a testimonial and really maybe amplify this in in certain channels like linkedin this use case that that a customer is discovered so on these calls people are finding new ways to use computer to grow efficiency with their their team every single day and and this is a way that we can surface it i love it i would love to kinda close on what's your advice on you've had a great career you work for some stellar companies you've said that you've kinda drastically changed how you work and i suspect that the way you work today is probably how you believe the kind of future of work is done what would your advice be to folks on how to make sure they have a great career in the era that's coming up where ai is intrinsically linked to how you do work i don't think that has changed too much i think my general point of view is is be obsessed with the customer and whether that's that's the prospect or the actual customer that's that's using your tools or that's the internal customer thinking hey what would our vp of sales want to see today what would our executive team like to see today what do our sdr teams need from a rev ops team to be successful in their role and being really crisp on that and now with ai executing on on delivering on what they need it just becomes that much faster and more accurate using tools like complexity yeah very cool and nate this is awesome i think you've given a really great overview of how to use the computer had really integrated into how you do work how to build a true agent rev ops team like a team of one with a ton of of agents and given everyone that's being listed and watching really incredible workflows that they could go replicate so thanks for coming on this episode of marketing against green thanks for having me and we are hiring on the sales side so if anybody's interested in in joining but now big fan of the podcast i appreciate you having me let me tell you about a show i love hosted by my friend ross simmons each episode a host an in analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time with deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies brands stories and more if you like learning about history learning about the creative process you'll love this podcast this podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to system their creativity but still be organized ross just did a fantastic episode about reddit and ai distribution in the playbook that everyone is missing listen wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hubspot grow

okay i'm comment to you with one of the best episodes we have ever done we did this episode with nick ka he just blew our mind on how easy it is to create your very first ai employee we created one that was able to do a bunch of prospect and create pipeline for your sales team and the best thing is it's doing it all the time you can message it you can text it you can talk to it like an employee you can create an army of these ai employees in mere minutes i've replicated n system and started to use all of the things that he shows on this very episode and it is incredibly powerful all of that and more on this episode of market against the green okay welcome nick to the show nick you are the c cofounder founder and head of growth at org go it is a cool product actually we were talking off mike that will give your agents a full computer in the cloud and you are going to like take us through how to build your first ai employee and so there's been so much talk online about ai being able to do fully autonomous work and ai being able to do full end to end roles and i still think there's not been a lot of great examples of that right i think there's been examples where it will do like a kinda small task not a end to end kind job or a role and i think you're gonna show us how to do that through a system called hermes and so we're excited to get started and kind of go through what you're going to build yeah today we're gonna walk through implementing your first ai employee for your business everyone talks about things like open claw hermes and they talk about all of the things that they're automating with it but i'm gonna give you like a concrete first ai employee that any business can benefit from i'm just gonna walk through the whole build out process it's super fast super simple to get started six months ago or take a couple hours to get set up now it's like insanely quick so yeah we can just dive right in we should maybe make this kind of really obvious for folks but if i was listening to this and i was thinking why you're gonna create a first ai employee i would think of it as okay well you can do everything like every single task i give you no matter what it is you're gonna do that task but i think in this case could you think about it as an interim end workflow or like a real autonomous employee that can do the role of a marketer or the role of a salesperson or the role of whatever it may be it can literally be all of these things i know it's a little bit of annoying answer but it's true that you know starting with a workflow is how i like to start because it's like it's a single use case it makes things clear simpler less failure points you get one nailed use case start there but then after you have that it's also just a very competent yeah employee that can do other things too adjacent to that task that it's all already really good at or other tasks and then finally yeah just being able to just message it just like you would a normal employee of like hey like what's the progress on this what's the update on that email sequence we sent out last week did we give any feedback from that it can truly be an employee and i think it's the biggest arbitrage for businesses that's awesome like great advice so we'll get into how that looks but start with one workflow and then over time it really just does feel like you have an employee sitting in your slack sitting in on your messaging and imessage whatever it may be that can do work and help your business grow exactly there's only a few forms of leverage in a business there's code there's media there's you know talent today i think agents is like the combination of all that you know to be able to have ten ai agents ten ai employees i mean it's insane okay so you've got a pretty cool graphic up can you maybe show us how we get started here to create this awesome ai employee so the first step is with the use case so with our ai employee that we're gonna build today every business they have thousands of customers hundreds tens of thousands hundreds of thousands maybe and they maybe haven't engaged on these leads or customers in a while maybe it's been a few months or years even and you're just sitting on potential revenue that you could just generate overnight if you re engage these leads this is a warm audience you already sold to them before so it's like the highest lever to pull in any business usually so what i wanna build today with you is an ai employee that engages these past customers past leads makes an email sequence warms them up crafts an offer to get them re engaged on your service or product and this is something that you could implement today and by tomorrow already be making money from it it's very fast and easy to get started i think this is on obvious workflow that all business marketers tiers would want to actually have within their motion we wanna give it a couple so we wanna give it its own email i use this company called agent mail i've actually met with them the founders in person they're great guys what agent mail does is you can give an email inbox to an agent in this case our ai employee so i use agent male i use hermes hermes is or harness and so a lot of people they're familiar with open cloth they maybe have heard or haven't heard of hermes hermes is a competitor to open cloth and i find that it's a more reliable version it's better a lot of people today are switching to hermes because is more purpose built for for a kind of like the the sort of use case of the scale at which people are using agents today lastly we have the model that powers the harness so the most popular one today is actually this model called gl m five point two it's built by a company called z ai or z ai it's an open source model and it's like a deep seat moment because again because it's an open source it is a chinese model but it's a fraction of the cost of something like claude opus and it even outperform it in some use cases which is just insane it used to be the case that you'd have to spend thousands dollars you know a month to really get a lot of great use cases out of something like open claw but now it's gl m five point two it's super affordable everyone can get started and it works really really well if you're enjoying this episode and you want all of the resources you can click the link in the description or scan the qr code to get them all deliver to your inbox just a a quick question on that model is it fine tune for like knowledge work or there's some reason that it's better at this type of work versus the core l or it's just a great model i think it's a kind of a mixture of things i have my own speculation i don't know if they did something super fast to like train their models on the outputs of of fable five or something and then they just like caught up super quick i don't know it's an open source you can open weight it's affordable it's fast and and yeah i think more and more labs like like open eye they even said explicitly on when they made gp five point five they kinda made it with this idea of open claw in mind so this is definitely the the trend is that we're trying to make l that are better at using tools if i'm watching this and we're doing this through hermes it says that this is old wired through comp compose so do i need to sign up for all of these and i'm gonna have to like wire them together or is that done automatically through it's like really easy through hermes to do that yeah so comp compose is really one of my favorite tools so you just go comp compose dot dev and it allows you to connect to all your favorite platforms tools applications even hubspot and in one click you just click authorize and hit connect connect connect connect and once you connect everything you can then install just the one connector which is a compose connector into your hermes agent oh that's cool and it has access to all the tools that you connected to with just one connector has that's super cool yeah you're giving me a ton of tools to go use i need that tool so it basically allows you to have all of your connectors in one spot and then you have one link and you can connect that link to any ai assistant or tool and it will auto have access to all of those tools that you've signed up for that's awesome that's so cool and how many times have you you know switched to a new oh okay i'm gonna try complexity computer i'm gonna try cloud desktop and you have to connect everything again well with compose you don't have to do that anytime you set up a new agent a new platform a new tool i mean you just connect one connector comp compose and you have access to all the same tools that you have on your other agents it's very cool that is a i will be signing up for that today it's it is awesome it is all it is truly and when we're working with them closely to more integrate into and obviously entire our product org and i can talk just real quick look every ai employee every ai agent it needs its own computer at org we provide our own computer you can use others as well like there's companies like hosting your hertz digital ocean you just need a place for your agent to live and an environment for it to store its files and be able to do real work and that's what we do so yeah so or the your company allows the agent to actually have a virtual computer so it can actually go do things on the browser it can go store files just to make sure our listeners really get that so now you have agents to actually just like you have a laptop they can actually start to do work on their own to the laptop and so that's what your company allows these agents to do and that is like the power of starting to set up these like autonomous agents these kind of ai employees and the cool thing is like i spell water all over my laptop right and i have to go get a replacement and they couldn't do work for like several hours so the agents don't have any of those problems they don't have to go it like deploy their virtual computer or they don't have to like get a new one when they actually spill order over it so even just that is a pretty powerful concept for people to understand yeah when a buyer ai for a solution link yours do you know if you're showing up or not and hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you could show up even more and in that time just now in the last like five seconds they spun up a whole computer i just asked it to go do some research on hubspot you could see like in our playground here or org agent or kind of own version of man so to say it's showing you what it looks like to have a ai control computer click around like that's it we're here agents can now operate a computer just like us and so yeah cool i'll be able to kinda walk through how to get everything set up on org once again you can use whatever tools you'd like but i'm a little biased i think we have the best easy you should feel proud about your tool yeah you're coming on to like give everyone free time to like deploy something so you should feel free to like talk about how great your company is for sure and i want everyone give it a shot we have three day free trial twenty percent off your first three months used code hubspot we'll also have a link in the show notes and yeah it's no risk got started you can try it out and give it a shot so as far as getting set up with something with our ai employee should we just dive right in yeah i yeah let's do that so you can see here i have this workspace in or i created a hubspot workspace out of the logo and i have all of my workspaces here that i manage our customers like businesses i manage their ai agents inside of these workspaces and i could just easily spin up a computer and install an agent inside of that computer and get going now we launched a new feature and i'm really excited to show this and it's called templates so it used to be the case that you'd have to create a computer go inside of it manually install like hermes or open claw well now with templates you don't you have to think about that you just click templates click what you want i wanna cloud code template a open cloud template a hermes agent template we'll let's do a hermes agent one and then i'll call this employee let's let let's give it a name should we give him a name what's a good name we should give our our kip we need to get kip isn't in here he's in cans and so he needs to start doing some work here okay kit agent so type in the name i click launch computer and you can see off to the left here that it's creating a computer with with hermes pre installed and everything and it it takes a little longer since it's installing all these packages and so forth it's but it takes about twenty seconds and so open claw was the kind of autonomous agent harness of choice for a little bit a time they got bought by open ai i was a great deal for peter i think they are still doing things they just haven't got as much of the kind of zeitgeist online could you maybe just like break it down why do you like hermes like what were what are some of the things they they do better for the full autonomous ai employee kind of task yeah i think that hermes by default it just for whatever reason that the team behind it it's much more reliable like i i spent you know days out of time fixing some of the issues i had with open cloud gateways going down things breaking cro jobs connectors just failing with a lot of lot of chaos i switched over to hermes i really haven't had any issues on hermes with reliability and and that's the biggest thing is if you're gonna have the employees the minute they break you kinda lose trust so exactly and look i have nothing bad to say about i i think open call it's maybe it's much better now and i should give it a fair shot again i have to give peter his credit i had the first viral video on open claw on all platforms that it did over like a million views on every platform and i was talking about the back mini and it was cool and and peter can like repo it put us on the website and everything and he was peter stein was at org he was our first paid customer crazy cool very cool so i love the guy but but it just happens to be the chase her reasonable a little about it worldwide and these tools are you kinda interchangeable at times right like maybe they built some features that you love and you kinda move over alright so hermes you basically set up a computer through or you give a computer then you give it the tool hermes so the agent has access to that i i guess like the computer has that tool pre installed exactly yeah so now the computer has hermes like the harness it has everything it needs for that pre installed since we launched it off the template and so you could see here like it's spun out the computer even has a little background and you okay hermes agent and here there's a terminal that's beneath this computer in our interface here and now i just type in hermes model and i'm gonna walk through this as though no one's ever done this before just because it's easy it's fast and it's simple enough that i can you know do it live and once i type hermes model it's gonna take a second here and it's gonna spin up all of the different available models that you can connect to for the agents gl m five point two is on that list clog is on that list gp five point five is on that list so we'll just give it a second here to spin up well while we're giving that a second to spin up but one thing if you look at the graphic you created to kinda give the overview here you know what's interesting is i'm interested get your take it you're obviously an extremely technical person you have a technical company you think in systems see this habit it works can you just scroll down to show the full flow okay this this to you is probably just like hey this is just how i think the average person actually doesn't think in terms of work workflows and systems and so what you're showing right now i think is a great use case to follow this video and try it out and build your first ai employee but do you think that this is a skill that all kind of marketers and growth people need to learn or do you think that over time it's gonna just become way more simplistic that you're gonna just tell an agent say i want you to like improve my paid media and that agent will spin out you know a little at ai employees who can in the background it's like figuring out what they should be doing i guess what i'm asking is like not everyone has a skill set and so do you think over time people need to learn this skill set of understanding how to build agents to do specific workflows and think in terms of like workflows and systems or do you think the systems are gonna get so much better that you'll just have to give them an outcome and it will build all these things for you i think it is both i really do because when it comes to thinking in terms of systems and having an ai agent that can automate a workflow like for some people like you said it's more it's more natural for others it's more of a conscious effort of like what do i do when i launch a pain pain like i okay let let me walk through step by step and if you can just kinda like be conscious of it and like write down what what does it look like step by step actually on my formal background i was a prem med i you studied biology and college but i i i think it helped me in the sense of i i definitely learned everything and in school in in terms of like systems and step by step so that is useful now in the current state of ai today you're probably seeing a lot of stuff about loops have you heard of like yeah yeah yeah yeah that is all my waiting list right now yeah it's fascinating because rather than describing a sequence of of steps for an agent to take just describe a goal and give it the tools and context to nudge it towards that goal and it does it and it does it often better system wise than than what i might design yeah i have like a whole bunch of things to read on loops but you give it an come and you tell it to like loop until you finish that outcome and it's able to like start and you give a bunch of tools after chat came out i was like deep the prompt and i prompting was my leverage against like marketers and growth folks not against like true ai engineers or anything like that and then over time claw if you just tell claude what you're trying to do it would give you a better prompt than i could do yeah and so the model just get better i think like this is an example where if you're off put by this and you're like wow this is gonna be really hard i suspect at at some point the model will build the loop workflow for you based upon your outcome yeah exactly it it's it all it's almost like if you just can think of what you want it bill will give not yeah yeah it's like we're getting to that point oh which is crazy you you still need to have the ideas and you have to have the prioritization and what is work worth doing but yeah yeah again it's the point where the agent will just figure it out it just figures it out and so here i'll show you so we type in hermes model in this terminal it's spins up here you can see all these different providers i just click i use the news portal it's the company that makes hermes agent i have a subscription with them and they give you a link so you you just hit enter when you select your model provider you i copy this link i go over here i paste it and i just click connect and once i do that i come back here boom log in successful and now i can select whatever model i wanna use and you can see all of them here you can see there's deep seek there's gl m five point two and you can see oh my god it's so so affordable ninety eight cents as opposed to what's what's and drawbacks it's five dollars so now i will say this i'm i'm gonna use for the sake of this video because it is faster gl five point two is almost equivalent and the end outcome but for whatever reason opus is faster so i'll for the sake of this video i'll use it for that so enter enter we're all set up we're ready to go so now when i spin up a terminal i just type in hermes i have the harness of course the hermes harness and now i have it connected to opus four point eight in this case or gl five point whatever you wanna use and if i say hi to just test it the agent's gonna reply to me so now we can just get started with getting it connected to all of our tools and when you wanna use something like once once getting any kind of connector like hubspot or super base wherever wherever your data lives use compose make sure you're on the for you on the top left here click for you connect everything boom boom click install and when you click over here you could just click the open clause install it's the same thing click that i'll go ahead i'll do it and i'll actually give the instruction here i'll just copy this and i'll rotate my key after this i'll copy this instruction under mc p and then actually i'll even click api key over here and i'll copy this instruction and i just paste it to the agent add the agent is gonna install the compose connector so that it can access all of those other connectors that we set up with comp compose takes just a couple seconds yeah and not that has access to all of the tools now it has access to all the tools and then the next thing you would wanna do and we'll include in the show notes as well i have a prompt that builds ob upsetting involved yes now you're talking my language i'm pretty obsessed with ob city graphite or least different things yeah yeah tell me tell me so like i yeah like pretty much fall the standard ai geek read you know under k on wiki so ob citi allows you to turn your local file system into a wiki fool your agent and so it mine does pretty much so much standard things where if i run a command called and ingest it will go off and find all of the raw intelligence that lives across my docs my comm channels i have a stage in folder called raw and so i download all of my docs that i get i have a script that will basically go in if someone sends me aluminum it will take a transcript and put it into the staging folder and then i have logic that will say these are the types of intelligence i'm looking for and it will route it to different places and so i have a bunch of like files that will tell me how different teams are performing how different bets are performing and it routes it into there and so the beauty of a ai second brain is you have an ellen wiki for your agent it has all the intelligence across everything you care about it's continually updating it and for me it's amazing because i said my little media note taker to like meetings that i don't go to but then it has that context and ingest soul of that context extrapolate all the intelligence and so then anytime you work with i do mind in cloud code but anytime you talk to your agent it's preloaded with your empty file that tells it where to go to find the intelligence and any question you're asking it and so i'm like hey what's the update what blockers does this team has and it's like oh i found this is what's happened across slack you haven't come back yet they're stuck here there's a meeting thread on that and there was a meeting in that you were in that said this about that and this is how i think you can solve it so you are continually talking to an agent that is preloaded with all the intelligence you need and it's mapped to what you care about this is like the things that i care about and then actually has my core outcomes it has all of my goals across my different teams so that's what i built and the thing i'm built and i so it's portable so my basically syncs with github so i can use it with any kind of cloud web c cloud code so i can use it on my phone but i have so many different ideas i was in a i was talking about i was a clay conference and i presented it for the first time and it's the thing that's changed the way i work the most ever like i i like i could never go back to not working in that way yeah and and do you have it have context over everything like people projects as well yeah yeah it builds basically so it has a file for each of my direct ports but then what what it will do is if someone comes up two or three times it has a wiki folder for intelligence so what we'll will say hey here's something you're learning it's not associated i have mine broken into bets and people so bets are the core comes i'm trying to drive and people are the people who reports me but it will find a concept that is not routed to either of those but say hey this is really important and it will build a wiki page for it so it has that intelligence and then if i've met a person twice and that's a person that i'm learning about it will just auto build a file for that person and so it's capturing and it's capturing and insights about them do you have it set up so like it's running on a schedule to pull in all this context no i command called in ingest and whenever i run the ingest so it will look in the log file and say the last time you're on this command was two days ago and so it only looks for the net last two days of updates nice yeah and then i have a command called lint that will look across and see and try to clean it up so we'll say hey this thing is in contrast to this thing which one do you wanna use and so it tries to keep the whole intelligence layer it's running the ob and plug into sync with github and that syncs every five minutes nice yeah that's like and i love ob because you can sync it to github up but also they also have like for four bucks a month you can sync it to their own managed cloud yeah it sinks live like it's like it's all instance and you can stick across laptops so if you wanted to have a team based one you could have it in github n or across city on your laptops yeah i love ob and and so that is a prompt i have a prompt in it'll it'll be in the show notes you can give this prompt and what it does is it actually will go through all of your connectors via compose or however you have your agent connected via mc p's or what have you and it'll build a vault for you it takes some time it takes honest if several hours but it's like a carp styled wiki vault ob city vault knowledge base and it's super important because with an ai employee you wanted to have context you wanted to know who's doing what who is this what's this project why is this important and you don't want it to have to always fetch it through the tools and the connectors if it could just do it through ob city and it's faster it's all there and it's very agent friendly so now we have compose you installed i'll just do a quick slash reset here in the in the in the terminal just to make sure and i could ask my agent hey is comp compose working and let's see what it says also while it's replying here i'll just kinda like talk through a couple other cool features you can see this plug icon up here if i click connect an agent if i wanna just run this terminal rather than running it on the web i can just copy this org ssh kip agent and then i can open up my own local terminal and i can just type org go and copy that paste command org go ssh kip agent and now i have it running on my computer mh i typed been hermes that's cool and this is actually the hermes agent i and i can ask you it hi as comp compose working and let's see what it says so now i could actually just operate the cloud computer from my own local computer and you can see here comp compose it's finding the tool it's it's searching that and it seems that that's working yep so now compose is working i'll jump back here into org and the next thing we need to do is give our agent an email for this purpose because we want it to be able to obviously send out these email sequences to our to our customers so i like agent mail it's super easy to go to agent mail dot t o it's free to get started and i created an inbox i called it the org claw at agent mail at t and i created the inbox and i could actually connect agent mail via compose you as well i can see here just find the agent male connector connected over here boom and now once you have that connected your agent will have access to its own email box and now you literally just would tell it which i'll also include this prompt you will just tell it hey i want you to build out this customer re engagement sequence and because it's connected to all of your tools on comp compose for instance for me my customers they live on stride they live in super base they live in like these connectors that have connected in comp compose so it found all the ones that are high candidates to reach out to using this prompt built out everything literally took like five minutes i'll include this let's go ahead let's paste it here and and tell our our kit agent to to build this out so this prompt is that graphic you showed it's just that workflow and a prompt tell exactly do these things in sequence is it triggered like it runs once like does it run every day so how is a frequency setup yeah it's so it sets up these scheduled tasks yeah through cro jobs this was literally me asking the agent like this morning and and it took like five minutes ten minutes max i was like hey i wanna build a customer re engagement agent and i was like you know can you help me do this i've connected to comp compose so you don't even have to paste this prompt if you could just tell it what you want and it will do it all for you like that's genuinely what i did and yeah it says here at email one email to it has like a whole sequence yeah sequence three email templates here's the personalization it's gonna do here's the timing of it here's the offer that it's gonna create to re engage these customers yeah day zero day three day six so yeah it came up with this idea i'm and i'm just approving it and what you might wanna do is say like hey look a use your agent mail email to send these emails and look when the customer replies i wanna be pulled into the loop and what's cool is the minute you set this up and the agent has this up and running and it's like it's on automation it's it's it's running you could text it you could text it via telegram or however you wanna connect to the to the to the ai agent or slack or whatever and you say hey how's it going how's is that that email and nurture sequence working do we get any replies on that oh we did okay like it's kinda cool it's truly like an employee yeah i think the cool thing here is so your your agent has its own email inbox and so if if on the off chance it did go a little ride because i think that's what people worry about it it it basically said something you know that wasn't great or said something that was low quality it has its own inbox and so people do know that that is not you like i think there was the early days people like email in on their behalf i think agent have its own inbox and then the cool thing is what you're probably set up here is if there's a reply the agent then will just reply with you and the thread oh have like nick nickname and so it loops you answered it really is like a little a little bd or little kinda doing all your qualification and prospecting yeah and i like hey i'll even show you here when i was doing it this morning like i called it hermes employee number one here we go and i have the terminal here and you can actually see like when i told it about hey i wanna build this out i literally just said you can send all your emails from org club at agent mail dot t here's your email or you could even draft it like it's literally me just talking in a kind of exploratory way yeah to this agent that's like smarter than me and yeah it's like okay cool and then it uses all the connectors builds everything out he's like look here's what i'm gonna do i did i just detected that you have this many customers in stride i just detect it i'm gonna draft these emails gonna make a review doc for you it gave me a link you can see here it has a link i open the link it's like here's the customers we should reach out to you here's what to say and i'm like okay cool let's do it so you can just tell it what you want and it'll build it out and it's amazing it's like so so simple to get started it literally literally took me five minutes to get this set up this morning before the show see so you know when you look at your graphic i think it's really well done the graphic but it's actually even easier than this graphic which is it is hey you went through you used or you basically set up your first virtual computer you pre installed with hermes you went into hermes and you said hey here's kinda what i'm trying to do here's the comp compose so you have a little the different tools i've set you up an agent mail so we have inbox here's what i'm kinda trying to do like i'm trying to build this employee that we'll do this task for me on you know every three days we'll do this task and how do i do that and then you've connected it to like a really smart model i think in that case it was called but you you were kinda recommending gm as much cheaper if you wanna do this in scale and they will say okay well here's how you should do everything set it up you can like text the little guy and you can say okay how is it going are you getting a mini replies i suspect you could probably say hey what's the what's the open open like ten okay what can we do better right right you can start to like work with it as an employee okay like just that that's bitch suggestion that's not a good suggestion and try to desk update yourself try those things for the next fifty males tell me what the results are yeah yeah it's it's insane that is insane yeah i think like why would did you do this it's like you can let you can literally have an army of autonomous agents doing i think the best place to start would you agree is like find some like pretty well controlled workflows to get yourself familiar and trusted and i think if you're like well i don't want my first one to be email in folks then like is your you had it in there well it can do the it can do the draft it can set up all the drafts and you can send the email until you get comfortable because it has this only email inbox i probably would just let it go for like i would say hey email the first thousand and then we'll review the results after a thousand cents to like get going and check in how it's performing yeah and even that right there of like hey like hey how about this do the first thousand and then send me an email about the performance of that first thousand and how it went and what we could do better and then we'll we'll go from there you know it's like it's truly that simple so it if a quick recap like it comes down to get compose set up it's free connect all your tools to it okay now it has access to all those tools and context cool give it its own email so it can be able to do work real email sequences so on and so forth connect your model gl five point two give it a computer on org go and lastly give it an ob cdn interval give it a knowledge base in a brain so it has an even deeper understanding of what your company does who you are who are these people you work with so on and so forth and then just describe and nudge it in the direction of your goals yeah it's it's definitely like that that bitch killer actually that i have an ai brain that gives me into core intelligence about my company people my outcomes and in this model you give the agent the brain and the agent has all of that contacts to go do its own work so i don't have to like it it's using the second brain to do the work i think that is like killer actually i am going to do this tonight that's how powerful i think especially the part given at the ob vault i think this is killer i think this is truly speaks to one of your core skills is to build your own team everyone is a manager because now i can create a a whole team to execute that demand expertise across such a broad set of things and i feel like that's a core competency you're going to need to have is like i i can be a quote unquote individual person working on things by the team of agents yeah that are actually executing all of this work yeah yeah and like i i think like the one of the coolest things about when you get set up on org is like obviously here we we set up the kip agent and what we did thus far on the kit agent we gave it the the connectors to compose you and and i think i guess we initiated it's it's it's prompt so it could start building up these sequences but what you could do is you could clone it and so i i clicked clone here and i actually just created a complete clone of this computer and the hermes that we installed in in all of the system prompt and everything and if i open this computer now this is a clone of that ai employee we just made and now we have two wow and now i could tell this one i it's been a hermes and i'm gonna say hey okay we have kip agent one he's gonna do the emails sequencing and he's gonna do that but i want you to maybe check his work and maybe do the follow ups or so i don't know we're yeah yeah yeah do or do a sale do something sales related like yeah and then you could just quickly see out like okay like we're gonna have a lot of these agents shoot if you wanna spin up a windows computer in here so that you can install open i's codecs desktop app into windows and then maybe codecs related you know codecs might be better at the goal mode might be better yeah what whatever the next new agent is whether it's hermes is open call codecs cloud code have it here in a workspace have them working together talk to it from your phone and manage your whole fleet of ai employ this is clearly where the future going and yeah so clear a hundred percent i i couldn't agree more i think nick this is being a awesome overview i love it when i do one of these and i just get a ton of new tools to go try i've got three brothers were all in whatsapp talking about this stuff all the time and i've already texted them a bunch of things that you have shared and so i really appreciate this i think that this is incredibly actionable and it's something that everyone can go tri out and build their first ai employee and get a ton of value from likewise i can't wait to see what everyone does i'm sure people will have even better ideas than me and it's really it's the people who have their domain expertise they're in an industry like some niche manufacturing industry and they're like oh my god i just rebuilt a software with my agent and that costed us six thousand dollars a month and i just told her what we need and i built it out in a couple days it's like the things you can do today with with ai and and these agents is incredible so great i'm excited to see what people do cool thanks a nick appreciate you coming on cheers talk to you soon let me tell you about a show i love hosted by my friend ross simmons each episode a hosts an in analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time with deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies brands stories and more if you like learning about history learning about to creative a process you'll love this podcast this podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to system ties their creativity but still be organized ross just did a fantastic episode about reddit and ai distribution in the playbook that everyone is missing listen wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong pretty freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the clients whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot hubspot grow better

hey if you like me you're feeling like ai has broken your marketing how your team's working the tools you're using the results you're getting and that's because it has it's fundamentally changed and on today's show we're offering you a promise of how to fix that and we've got a very very special announcement you're gonna wanna tune in for and we're gonna take you behind the scenes i did a complete change of how we run hubspot marketing team i'm gonna give you nine family principles for that change and i'm gonna give you the new operating model that we are running to win at marketing in this post ai world let's get to today's show hey karen i wanted to share something with you i'd completely changing everything about how we run the marketing team at hubspot you've been off in a new role you've been building out all of our ai technology and how we do marketing and sales at hubspot so i think you haven't actually seen something i'm super excited about i'm calling it the refill of the hubspot marketing team and it's how we actually bring the hubspot marketing team and what you and i call the loop era because one of the big things that we're talking about is how we actually wrote a book called loop marketing and it's how you do marketing in the ai era which is now available for pre order click that link it's a system called loop and that allows you to out learn out marketing an out outgrow your competitors use ai to scale creative get recommended and the ai engines and be remarkable at marketing in this post ai world please go pre order comes out in the fall is going to be the best marketing book of the year we're biased we wrote it but i wanted to found our team at hubspot to be the best loop marketers in the world and so i wanted to walk through with you some of the ideas and plan for what we're doing and i wanna get your feedback how's that sale love that i think we have been talking for a long time about how the rules of marketing have changed how you organize your team have changed and actually how you do work is changing in i'd love that today's episode is really a cheat sheet in marketing strategy an organization right so it doesn't matter if you're a leader or you're a marketer we're giving you the inside secrets so that you can turbo charge your career right exactly look we were successful because we managed to ride the wave of inbound managed ride the wave of little p i jumped onto to ai riding a little bit of the wave of ai you wanna make sure you can ride the wave make your career make your money in the next cycle i think this is a a great episode for you i wanna go over with everybody the memo because we made some major changes is how we run the team here at hubspot and i wanna break it down the first thing is that marketing has been changed by ai more than any other profession and the reason for that is that marketing is the culmination of everything it's the culmination of storytelling which has been disrupted by it's the culmination of research and insights been disrupted by it's marketing is coding been super disrupted by ai marketing is all of the disciplines in work in one form and packaged to actually persuade someone and so if you like us think marketing has been completely disrupted then i wanna bring you into the loop marketing error with all of us when a buyer ai for a solution like yours do you know if you're showing up or not and hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot au you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you can show up even more it's the new world and karen and i have spent the last year testing writing thinking about how to bring people into this loop marketing era and one of the reasons it's so important kieran is because ai can feel like magic like remember the first time you used ai wasn't it like the most magical experience in the whole world it felt like you had super superpower i still get that feeling when you've built like cloud code systems or you're using codecs or you're doing all of these different things it still feels like you have super powers but i think it's like how you wheel them it's how you wield well i think that's the issue it's just like magic ai can vanish or you can spend all day and actually get nowhere right like see that like ai can play a trick of on you right that you've doing all this stuff and actually not accomplishing anything and that's where i think so many people and so many teams are right now with ai and not getting it anywhere people are yeah i think that's eighty people are it's like the ai messy middle of ai where people believe they should use ai for all things but it's not clear if anyone's really achieving anything and this is one of the key points if you wanna turbo charge your career you're watching this episode do you wanna win you wanna be one of the best marketers out there the of the first things you have to understand is that ai without outcomes is not marketing it's art ai just for the sake of ai is art and entertainment it is not marketing and i think all the great teams now are going to be obsessed with outcomes thought that they weren't before but even more so and about how they drive better outcomes with ai and in a world with ai because you can do so much care and it feels like magic you need a lot more focus you need a lot more constraints so everybody's just going everywhere ai without systems is like chaos right and so that's what we actually kinda rolled out at hubspot on the marketing team is how we found this team in the spirit of loop marketing and in the book karen we make some important arguments that in loop marketing it's all about how quickly can you learn how fast can you move and how obsessed can you be about outcomes and i don't think the marketing of the last ten to twenty years has been that way right i think the marketing in the last ten to twenty years has been like how can i optimize this campaign how can i game this system how can i automate this thing and it's very different i believe do you agree with that so ai has increased the competition for everything and so what great marketing is is also changing because you cannot get away with like good enough and i think that a lot of marketers you used to just be able to optimize for algorithms which is you know the intersection between technology and marketing and it's like hey i can optimize some things and tweak things and i can move my things up because of algorithms what i'm seeing is we are getting back to basics a little bit like ai is causing and let's get back to basics where you actually have to really understand your customer you have to understand how to drive engagement you have to do cool you have to be able to do cool and you have to be focused on real outcomes and ai is a tool that allows you to do that but it is only as good as your deep deep domain expertise and i think ai rewards marketers tiers who have over the years practice real marketing and now have deep domain expertise that they can deploy through ai ai is not really the best market here it just isn't like of these ai tools that are being launched if you allow me to go into slight tangent all of these autonomous ai marketing agents from startups are pretty terrible like they're all terrible they research a bunch of stuff they spit it into an l they have some logic and they spit at some all bland a couple of the paid tools are pretty good we've had super scale on from patrick that's pretty good but most of the autonomous quote unquote non paid marketing tools that create content only these things suck and why because ai is not a replacement for real marketing and domain expertise and i think you're arguing that there's core principles you need to apply across your team and how they use ai be more prescriptive don't just say use ai for the sake of ai and like you just look at the usage go up well we're me ai native this is awesome there has to be some real principles and outcomes every barking leader i to you is like obsessed with what percent of their team is using ai that's such a bold thing to look at right yeah there's no measurement of like what person percent of my team is using gmail right like you care to be using ai and doing the most dumbest with it correct i mean correct so you know which most you are right so like let's say you're out there and you're like okay cool i wanna do something differently i wanna work differently well before you even give you the full play book because we are gonna go through the loot playbook in detail of many episodes but you need to understand the principles behind the playbook and when i i put all this together for the team i had nine principles carrying that i thought were super important and i wanna go through them quickly for everybody and i think if you adopt how you work by most or all of these you'll be wildly successful it will transform your life i'm biased i have been doing these and it has transformed my life the first one is we're ai by fault you know humans and ai together can build remarkable ways to achieve results neither alone could do i think that's really important it's not humans or ai and it's not like i'm gonna outsource store ai to everything it's like how can humans and ai work the best together possible and that the unique strengths of both is actually how you get new outcomes that's the first one next is like strategy first just don't go and do magic ai that has no impact right like we don't wanna do that and the the third thing here is progress is greater than perfection learning is the ultimate compounding investment in this new loop era in this post ai world i know you believe deeply in this one karen like break breakdown for everybody why using loops to learn is so important yeah and i would say that the first two really resonate with me which is people ask me you know what is the job of a marker in a world where ai is a core part of how you do marketing it and i think what you're describing as judgment and yes taste and understand them what is the right things to do and deploy ai four i think the era that we're in today the rewards go to the people who learn the fastest so yes there is an existing playbook of how you do market and that playbook has been written about in every blog post it has been written about in every social post there is ebooks on it there is like collateral everywhere on this all of that is in the l l alabama has given you the best version of marketing to do which means everyone is doing the best version of marketing to do one thing that we have learned from creating a marketing and methodology i think an inbound and i one review agree is that was transformational at some point in time yes that was transformational because a small group of people were doing it and it was so differentiated from what everyone else was doing it at some point it becomes the only thing that eric people do and the results start to average out for everyone because everyone is doing the same sort of thing now it's still impactful but it's not the most impactful thing and i think you need to start to be counter to what the best practice is and you can only do that through learning iteration now we have done a lot of that learning iteration we put it into a book but i think that's why your speed of learning speed of speed of experiment it rewards the people who are outside of the edges of best practice you gotta be differentiated you gotta be early and if you're watching this show you are early and you have the opportunity to to start building and also interpreting these principles in your own ways right and i wanna share a few more with you ten x customer value drives ten x business results if you ob obsessed about customer value you win the cool thing is ai makes it not just easier but brings in new ways to drive value of customers create remarkable experiences remarkable ads remarkable content with a ai that was just not possible super deep personalization all of these things create really remarkable value we talked a little bit earlier about outcomes but outcomes over activities like five i was probably gonna put one thing on a t shirt that would be the thing i would put on a t shirt we also just talked about number six which is learning velocity compounds you know we talked all about like progress or perfection and that the sister principle to that is learning velocity compounds the more you learn the further ahead you get of everybody else if you can be differentiated and then you can work on that differentiated marketing strategy consistently you will get not just a little ahead of everybody else you will get ten times further ahead of your competition and everybody in your market right that's the point that we're trying to make there's always kind of being best practice narrative around doing marketing for a company like don't be controversial now because of the way the online works controversy sells right like they're these things that you used to do that do not scale anymore do not work anymore because they are the known thing to do kieran when i was failing at marketing many times in my life our friend brian hall would send me an email and it was the most soul crushing email i think you probably got this email too and it would just say the definition of remarkable is to be remarked upon yeah with him just telling you you're not it like you're just do you're just you're just churning out some stuff you're not do anything that is different and interesting and valued right you know and talked about yeah you're not getting talked about you're irrelevant you're the world's to you yeah that's the whole thing okay but as we're kinda closing things out we had a couple last principles that i think are super important out outcome flexible goal flexible i think one of the things we've learned is that humans get very tied to the goals they have even though that sometimes there's gold sub optimize the outcomes that they're trying to achieve and so everybody needs to have the context of like what is the result we're trying to get and yes i might have a sub goal to that gets to that outcome but if that sub goal doesn't make sense i should raise my hand we should figure out a different goal right and i think if once you're on a bigger team more than a few people this becomes a real problem we all have to solve can you give an example of a outcome goal so let's say for example you run social media at your company and the goal of your small team is to generate leads for your sales team but you're like should media is not that great at lead legion so if my goal is going to be how impressions i can generate well if those are low quality impressions you sub optimize the goal the team goal which is like to generate interest in demand for your sales team because you're not even talking to your target audience right and so you're off there doing a goal that actually doesn't achieve the out come right you're going in two different directions so you need to actually work and say hey this school doesn't make sense anymore we need to come up with a better goal that that i can make sure there's a dotted line to the objective that my team is actually triumph nine to to hit right yeah and the thing you actually wanna happen exactly okay and the last two i'll put it kinda put together it's like in marketing understand the rules of the game and the more you make the rules of the game the easier it is to win and understand the any game you're gonna play you wanna play at a fast pace to win the game don't be afraid to lose the game and ai right now i see most marketers care afraid to play the game and playing not to lose the ai marketing game versus actually playing to win take risks and kieran one of the biggest radical things we've done there are three big things we changed how we hired and we're hiring for ai builders versus traditional marketers that's huge we should just pause on that like you actually have changed the job profile job profile the job rec the job process you now need to build with ai as part of the interview process which is completely different than you would have done role every role and would before it would been like put a dock or a powerpoint together that is now obviously obsolete so that's one major change the other major changes we're working with you and your team to embed ai engineers in with the marketing team to rebuild workflows in new ways that would have never been possible before ai right like that's incredible yeah it's really for ai it's understanding the depth of the workflow again the nuance of how someone does their work and making sure that can scale to everyone and so i know the the thing you and i talk about is that you learn from the best and you can scale those workflows and that's what we are collaborating on you wanna make your best teammates the work they do available to everybody and that's what we're trying to do and and get the the knowledge and wisdom of a whole team and system ties it and then i wanna close out with i think the biggest thing we're doing ke we are rolling out entire new operating model which is i think pretty cool we're moving much closer to how a product and engineering team works yes then a then a traditional marketing team we are now moving to a six week sprint model and and for that six weeks there are two types of sprints they're like team level sprints where if you're a member of a team you have your goal and you have your tests and activities that you are working on towards that outcome in a very time box six weeks period of time and all this is transparent everybody's gonna be able to see the sprints access the progress with ai and it's going to also lead to a whole new level of transparency then we're gonna have kind of like team wide sprints we call the mission sprints it's like hey there's a big rock we as a team need to move forward we're gonna cross functionally coordinate across marketing to move that we're gonna have a sprint leader and coordinate on a very tight weekly basis with stand ups with really important mechanics like you talk a little bit about the sprint mechanics because i think you've pioneered a lot of these and i still a lot of yeah from you again i think if you listened to this podcast everything we say we believe him because it eventually does come to fruition and so we talked some time back last year we said hey we think marketing is gonna move much more like an engineer that discipline that does not mean we did think marketing is not gonna be creative it's just gonna look more like you would see a product and an engineering team and so what you've set up is these six weeks sprints and what i love about it is every sprint has an outcome be and what you're basically mapping out is i actually believe in the future my marketers are gonna be able to do a lot of different things they're gonna be like more like generalist than niche people so i should just have a sprint where i have a collection of folks that can get together with a core outcome i wanna achieve over the next six to twelve weeks and they maybe one sprint or two cycles and i can have a group that just go after that outcome right you don't have to go oh this tea does this team on it does that team on it does this team on no like who are the best people i have this thing that i need to go after in one or two sprint cycles i'll put those collection of folks into that sprint with a clear outcome working model and they can go after it right and that i think that is a very different way of work and i think marketing is fundamentally broken because it still has such a tree structure with all teams with like deep domain expertise it's hard to make everyone work together because they're also different than what they do and you're kinda breaking that model totally breaking marty we want people to be super contributors super generalist who can do much more and own much more of the process and i think that if you're building a career marketing that's the way this is going also in a world of ai with anything's possible and you can have the world's shortest attention span i think focus and constraints have never been more important and this sprint model allows everybody to have really helpful focus and constraints and what i love about it is i tell everybody there's two outcomes to a sprint either you achieved your outcome or you learned a lot right right like that's it there's no failure you either learned a lot or you achieved your outcome and both of those things matter a ton and oftentimes you accomplish both of those things you achieve your outcome and you learn which is really really powerful yeah we should do a whole episode in a couple of months like you basically yeah or up the existing marketing team structure and moved it much more to like a fluid sprint model that's very outcome focused and you probably will get a lot of learnings that would be really valuable we'll do a future deep dive any questions you have about the sprint model in the short term drop in the comments and and i'll i'll read those comments and answer them but karen in september we got the loop book coming out loop out learn out market out outgrow it's available in amazon wherever you get your books barnes a noble target whatever please pre order it we worked really hard on it we think it's incredible what we went through today with the how to operate and work and build a marketing team in the modern era is all founded and all predicated on the book and wouldn't have been possible without the book and we're gonna be doing lots more episodes on lip marketing and then so we'll see very soon on marketing and screen let me tell you about a show i love hosted by my friend ross simmons each episode a hosts an in analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time with deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies brands stories and more if you like learning about history learning about the creative process you'll love this podcast this podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to system their creativity but still be organized ross just did a fantastic episode about reddit and ai distribution and the playbook that everyone is missing listen wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the clients hold history calls tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot spot grow better for

this episode we are gonna show you an incredible use case with codex codex is the tool of choice for any real ai practitioners at the moment and peter yang is one of the best of it he's gonna come on he's gonna help you build your very first workflow you're gonna give you an e eval skill that codecs would build that will make your workflow better every single time you use it and why does this even matter if you pick the right workflow you are gonna get a ton of time back to do the work you actually enjoy doing you can get that all here first and exclusive on mark against a grain peter thanks very much for coming onto the show you are going to go through one of the topics i'm fascinated by which is not only how do you create skills to help you build reusable automations within codecs or claude but how do you do eval how do you know these things are good gonna to drive outcomes yeah i'm pretty excited to here yeah for people might not be familiar eval it's like very much like a software ai product term but it's something that is really just a mechanism to help teach dji how to make its output better and we're gonna talk about that we're gonna talk about skills today and peter before we get started you you had a pretty hot take yep that that maybe we started out with my number one advice for all of you is to basically stop using chat claude and switch main workflows to codecs and clock code chat cloud is like you just chat with it it replies and you copy and paste some information back and forth but code and cloud code can actually get stuff done for you so that that has a difference right and i think anyone can like save so much time later their week in three steps and the three steps are like number one just reflect on your past week what are the tasks that take up the most time and are are the most annoying to do like the most manual work they can do right step two is just like literally lifts out every single step of that manual workflow like all the stuff that they have to do and then use codecs or clock code to turn into a system so basically just like copy and paste all your manual steps into one of these apps and be like hey let us work on streamline remind us and i promise it would kinda be blow away by what it can actually do through skills or through apis and through other integrations peter one thing i think non systems builders struggle it so if you're not really a systems thinker and you're just doing your work you might not even think of your work in terms of workflows you might not even really know what a workflow is right like i go here i do some research i create a blog post i publish it i go get some data to see if it's performing pretty well and then i iterate and improve it but i suspect a lot of content creators would not even think that's a workflow so can you maybe help explain how you think of a workflow and then what is a workflow how do i actually document those things or figure out what workflows i'm even doing day to day i think a workflow is basically just like a task that you have to do like let's say more than once a week and like document is literally just like listening all the steps that you take so i have this like pretty fancy slide for you know how i used to run my podcast manually but you don't have to make a fancy just literally just have to list all all the things that you do right so for example for running a podcast before you even record anything you have to prep the interview guide you got research to guest you know mount go through a bunch of youtube interviews and all my research you gotta figure out what the structured of interview is you gotta write the guide and you send it to the guest and they record it in riverside right and then send the recording to the video editor then you gotta pull a transcript because with the podcast there's so many different other assets they have to generate so i haven't used newsletter post tied to it i have social media posts i have the thumbnail copy title takes forever to figure out for for youtube right and then there's other stuff like show notes and other stuff you got gotta like make all of these other stuff go back and forth and then finally schedule all this stuff or post all this stuff to the different platforms and like i repeat this workflow like you know once or twice every every week because i every wanted to guess every week and it it's just like incredibly manual and time consuming so yesterday i spent the whole day we'll have codecs to figure out how to streamline and automate all this stuff through scales i think people who are just used to using claude or chat gp are you to really quick task you know like a quick back and forth a quick copy and paste i think something really important what you said is like you spent a lot of your day yesterday in codecs building this it's like when you're building systems it does take a while and take a lot of iteration right yeah exactly i used to have all the stuff in projects so i have a shown project that has like a bunch of prompts and examples and i just copy and paste stuff back and forth into a different platforms right and this was bad still save me a lot time but i think a codecs and cla just took it to the next level so this is codecs don't get intimidated by this stuff guys like it's basically just the chat with ai in different platform right so these these are all just like different chats with ai people talk about like i i build a personal os and like i build this that and what the hell is a personal os if you wanna build a personal then just think about what are your main workflows during a week like my bank workflows as a creator or like you know right in my news newsletter post running my community sponsor stuff and podcast podcasts and and then just kind of map up the steps right so this is the rem file for my various workflows in my personal os let's look at the podcast one so the podcast one that i have the skills that i built and and a skill is pretty much just a text file it's like text file with a bunch of instructions for ai ai but i have a skill that prepares the podcast for me and and by the way all these skills is not just like why one shot and you're done you still have to go back and forth with ai and apply your human taste but like it just makes us so much easier to go back and forth if you build these skills right so i have a podcast prep scale i have a thumbnail scale to kinda just gut check because we make a podcast you wanna make sure that the thumbnail title and copy is actually interesting otherwise you should probably should not make the podcast podcasts at all no and then after i record it i have all these like postpartum a scale that makes all the individual assets so i can go back and forth with it so by chaining all his skills together i'm able to kind of like really save a all time in my podcast flow hey guys we are covering a ton grand with peter today and i know you're probably feeling a overwhelmed and you wanna learn even more well good thing we've got a ton of resources for you you can scan that qr code or you can click the link in the description below and we'll get all of those for free are you a recent convert to codecs because you showed us cloud project yes to maybe talk about why yeah you migrated to codecs for these systems i i guess as a creator i have like unlimited usage on both apps as well you know i wanna first say that i love both products but i will say that codecs has really won me over recently and there's a couple things code does really well the thing that it does the best i think is like browser use and computer use if there's no like api deploy information you can just use the browser and go like browse as much of pay pages and get information for you i find that it's like a lot more robust than what cla has and i always turn on fast mode for codecs i'm not gonna hit the limits anyway so i try fast mode and i able to get a lot more work on you know so much of the internet especially in the early adopter it talks about like model and model quality and that matters but the software around that matters as much or more you know and like a lot of why we wanna use codecs right now is because of the actual software harness that they've built more so than of the core underlying model could you then maybe run through how you use a system so you've kind of documented your workflow you've gone into codecs when you've built the skill do you have to worry about where the skill is saved like maybe talk a little bit about just build the kind of how easy it is to build skills and codecs and then how you can kinda run them so let let's open one of these skills so i have a podcast prep skill to research the guest right it's just a text file yeah and it looks pretty complicated but i did not type any of the stuff like i basically got codecs to do it and then i reviewed it the process of building a skill is like you have my idea but like hey you know i i wanna do research for my guess and i wanna build able a scooter around it let's work coming together ask me any questions that that you have right and then you'll ask a bunch questions and then the important thing is after you build it you wanna run through the skill manually you wanna test it with something quick question on skills because i build a lot of skills i would be really honest that i i've stopped kind of reading them and i think what you're gonna show is i use them and then i give feedback to claude to redo the skill and i'll read them if it doesn't get to the standard that i want but i try to do it through iteration of usage so i think there is a risk here that you just eventually leads to ai s sp yeah right you just have some sp away so i actually build a scale cost skill editor each each time it builds a skill it runs scale editor and it tries to make the scale as concise as possible like i do it to one page and it cuts out all the ai slot terms it looks for like repetitive instructions just to give it a little bit more tight yeah because it over complicates everything right and so i've i've everybody somebody skilled are running against skills and tries to make them a short yeah the least amount of text for the same amount of power yeah exactly yep yeah so what is this doing right now so it's running podcast prep and then it's running another scale called thumbnail type and copy to figure out the angle and it's researching a bunch of your past appearances in youtube to get the transcripts and and like kind of try to figure out you know what kind of interesting angles we can talk about right the thing about did you remember here with the cold and clock code is like if you just an ask like hey can you actually just like pull the transcripts from the recent guest from youtube and like just to save it just ask the question ask the question and they'll probably figure out how to do it for you like any kind of like online work or activity and probably figure out how to do it for you so you to ask especially with computer using codecs you can let giving codecs the ability to use your computer you can get so so much done exactly when a buyer ai for a solution like yours do you know if you're showing up or not in hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot au you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you can show up even more if i'm a marketer here or someone watching this and i want to build this workflow could you maybe talk about how has that changed your ability to do podcast and like are you able to figure out what has been the core impact or upside to you i have just a couple of things number one i feel like i'm not doing this work alone anymore i think as a creator it can be kind of a lonely experience right it's just my my brain trying to figure things out but now i feel like i have a really good thought partner to figure out the thumbnail titles and like figure out the angle with me so that's like super helpful like a lot of the work is like manual copy and paste me back and forth if you google with docs and formatting stuff and i do all this stuff and and like you can pretty much just teach quote to do all that man at work so hopefully it frees up my mind to you know either play more video video games or or to think more about about to grow the overall thing you know so so yeah unlocks kind of like a higher order level of thinking i do think there is kind of like ai psychosis a little bit and i almost feel like if i don't have codecs or clock code to think with me like i i'm almost a little bit too lazy lazy too to think anymore yeah which is probably probably not a good thing so i guess that's what i would jump in here is it's like i think karen and i violently agree with something you said earlier where if you don't have like the human taste review in any of the work you're doing with ai the work's not gonna be great but then i guess my follow would be if like if this ai psychosis is real and you're constantly using ai do you think that like dilute dilute your taste i think it could help you refine your taste because like you for example i have a personal advisor skill where like there's are some principles that we wanna remember you know like for example one of the principles is keep the main thing the main thing because like as a creator you can easily like like i can go make a course i can go write a book i can go do i can go to like a bunch of ai conferences but like the main thing is like making it a podcast and then use that are good so so it kinda reminds me of like sometimes i forget but yeah you you do kind of get a little bit lazy you kind of like ask ai a bunch of questions i rely on to give you a bunch of answers that you kind of make a judgment about on as opposed to kind of thinking through the answers yourself i think that is something to be mindful of because i have experienced the same thing there's two things you kind start to experience but harvard doesn't you came out with that article i think in in march of this year where they talked about something called i think it was ai brain fatigue but one of the things in there they said because you kinda feel like you should be running a multi task at one with time right so like again a pre ai world you might be multitasking a little bit but you're kinda like trying to do one task at the time because you can only do one task at the time whereas with ai you feel like you're under unproductive if you're not running a mulch to the different things at once because the agents are running things and they had this like pretty cool article that said people were getting migraines brain fatigue and really wondering like what am even working on because they have so many things going at once one of the best things i built out in six month in cloud code was like an entire content system and it works really well and i got really addicted to using it and i realized i went to like grammar just to write something by myself and i couldn't figure out how to start the thing like i just gonna harp scratch you return yourself into an editor yeah and it's not too to dissimilar to critical thinking because you've made that point i see that as well where like you're or i'm gonna try and solve this problem and your brain it just doesn't naturally kick in the way it used to because i'm like okay well the first thing i would do is i tell claude here's the problem frame it up in these three ways and do some first principle thinking and so you definitely have to be very conscientious of offload in your skills to ai machine of yeah i get so good that it could just be at the calculator like i don't use calculator because i wanna be to do math well you're gonna be behind everyone else but i do get nervous about that i feel like we've had three years to learn stuff without ai so i just owe people like like me still have some critical thinking but like i i worry about the next generation because they have ai asked from day one to be a creator you need to be the genesis of information i really do believe and so i and i think that's why you kinda went back to be like hey ke and you're like i'm gonna write a first draft and it might be a messy first draft but it's my first draft and then i can work with ai from that right it feel free ian as well like i've i've just forgotten on how much i just love to write and not ask ai do you think this is good how would you make that better i'm not seeing ai as great as a writing assistant i still would recommend that but i don't know there's something like pretty free in about just writing in words and not having to ask an ai assistant how think about these things and would it approve them like the reason it would generate this stuff is i gave it just a bunch of really good examples of really good thumbnail thumbnails and titles right but sometimes you can go overboard once again it's not like one shot i have to give a thief feedback but like hey you know don't go to board and then go back and forth and apply my taste to it the thing i found that has worked really well for these kind of things is it first reads some sort of context file or like couple of files in a context layer like foundational layer so like an example for this would be you have your audience profile and that audience profile that's been built from what has worked and what hasn't worked and so it first checks that and then that's how it's a determine what are episode ideas and then how does it rank those ideas so it does it do anything like that yeah i i have a couple of lines about hey here's my background and my audience really likes practical and no bullshit tutorials and just like stuff that implement right away so like trying to get more practical focus your skills are as good as the context they have and so the more information you can give them in terms of what outcome you're looking for the more valuable they're gonna be it's all about management a context window at the end of the day yeah yeah high quality context is what matters okay so let's switch gears why don't you write a post based on your research of karen about how to use ai for marketing just write a draft post and put it a chat alright cool so i just gonna write a draft and then i think what we're do is we we can run an eval on the draft okay very cool yeah so this is a draft and wanna say can you run the eval on this draft and also put the whole eval table with check boxes in chat and eval is like a evaluation which is basically gained the ai to check its own work you don't want what the original agent that i wrote the draft to run the eval because there's some bias there if you ask me to you know review my own work i'll i'll say look it'll looks great right so there's different types of you the most straightforward eval is just like pass or fail there's other eval where like hey you wanna give it like a score like a four zero five three out of five but like i'll i'll tell you ai is very bad at give me a scores if if you're like hey give me an eval of how authentic is posted is three out of five four zero five it it has no clue the difference between a three out of five and four or five even if you give instructions yeah yeah yeah so i just recommend keeping your eval simple just do simple pass fill checks the great thing about that is once you have these checks in place if it fails any of this checks then you can just ask it to keep editing a draft until it passes all on the checks right so then it kind of kind like self iterate and improve itself i guess you're like the eva email will be based upon what is the perfect i'll cast episode for your channel how did you create the eval and how did you know what were the right things to look for you can get it to create initial eval just based on your examples like if it's like a content editing skill you wanna give it a bunch of examples of your best content your best outlook right and then you can be like just like can you just create an eval pass based on the examples but i think the real way to create eval and make them good is to actually just run the scale through a bunch of manual processes right so let's say i have a added user scale and then i use it to edit while of my user pulse and then through the conversation it's like using too many m dashes or like you know it's like right too long so then i'm like okay so based on this conversation can you update the eval to include some things that we learned in this conversation and then you'll be like okay i'm gonna check maximum two ambitious that's like pass and then you can either say yes that sounds good or you can say no doesn't not sound good so for example here's the email that i have for my end user post all my user newsletter post have a specific format does it open with fewer subscribers is the hook line short enough to kind of like catch people's ten attention is the post free of m dashes is is like no slot there's a lot of bunch of other stuff so if it drafts the post and then it checks each of these things yeah yes no and if anything fails it it like this the other agent to edit the post again i think this is a really important point and why so much that of work that people do with ai is not good it's not just because a lot of people don't use eval is because if you look at what an eval is it's actually somebody being very clear and committing to what they want and what is good and i think so many people have a problem with that right like it's like oh i don't know what i'm actually creating so i'm just kinda all over the place where like you were like i know the formula and because i know the formula i can have a real complete system to evaluate whether i'm meeting that bar every single time or not you can pretty much build eval for anything right if you're trying to pull some stats from autism on online research you could be like hey did you research at these ten solar sources yes no or did you research the recent interviews interview from to youtube in the last thirty days yes no you can pretty much build emails for anything another lesson thing i think is the skill and the eval that's tied to a scale is like a live working document right you know i being a pm for example for like over a decade and like a lot of engineers asked me hey when the p you gonna be done is this speck gonna be and the spec is like never done because you're always learning something new so just same thing with a skill and the eval as you run through like manual passes as so you use it if you learn something new just ask the ai to improve a skill in the you eval right and double check his work and then slowly but surely your skill get more and more effective over time i have done eva eval for that content system and one of the kinda gotcha is if the eval is trying to do any kind of judgment or of taste then it primarily likes itself like one of the i does quad is i kinda tried to do this eval and i was like here's what like a great ride in signs like i it would kinda map my audience profile and like interestingly me whenever i would update with like free form content that i would update the post with versus claude updated it itself it always preferred its own writing which i don't know is funny but you can kinda get it in when when it's like when it's doing an eval of like judgment and taste it prefers itself and you get into this kind of cycle of like does it really understand judgment and taste i think the human is better at but i think what's fascinating is your eval is more around to kind of formulaic way that you wanna create that content like things that you can actually it's not so much judgment and taste it's like there's a formula and there's like core criteria in that formula and you're like evaluating to see if those things exist or not and it's actually a pretty interesting thing for creators because if you're a business and your team are creating skills i think it would be a pretty good service to actually have creators create your eval because creators would know what the criteria is for like a winning youtube video for you they could like figure out what the win formula is for youtube video or they could figure out what the win formula is for like a linkedin post and they could actually write your eval for you and it would actually help up level your team pretty quickly actually there's a lot of ghost writers out there maybe it was like a eval writer inks instead i also think ai shaman is so dumb because ai is gonna be intrinsic to how anything works and so it's a tool and doesn't matter if you use ai if the outcome is still like good right you adjust something on the outcome not how it was created we are in the messy middle of like ai hate a little bit there's just like shaman of anyone uses ai in a creative way which that i think is pretty dumb i i feel like ke that there there's is a lot of shaming because around this notion that like oh you just use ai and didn't do any work yourself you know and i think that's what a lot of this sentiment comes from and i think one of the themes that we've talked about the last couple minutes is that if you're creating something if you're working on something with ai you kinda have a partner and there are some things that ai is really good at like eval and systems and things that the humans really get at like taste and judgment and if you don't have the human side of it then it is going to feel very average and you know shift to the median and not going to actually stand out and feel like ai s and so it's like yeah if you just outsource everything to ai it's not gonna be good but if you work with ai there should be no backlash against that right well the idea still matters like yes that's the big thing i think is there was a piece of content that went really viral and x where someone wrote a post that everyone quoted that was like why are things are moving much further than i had expected and here's all of the repercussions because of that and it was quoted everywhere and opus wrote that post because i do so much creating with ai i could like decipher the patterns but it didn't stop it being a great post right yeah and so i still think the idea is intrinsic to like having a good outcome that's kinda like a ballast like with anything else for example if creators like they follow a bunch of top accounts and just set up like automatic ai replies to all accounts which which is like all over x xt right yeah yeah and like i i thought i find that like super annoying like i blood phones people but like is it probably getting the results it probably is yeah yeah just coming back to your workflow maybe as we run at this conversation one of the things i probably would do now after watching you work through that which is like hey i'll get the workflow build skills is do eval and i still kinda come back to okay well i would love to get started i'm gonna like get my c codec set up i'm gonna start building some of these skills and some of my workflows okay what are some of the things i do each and every day i think if you just build a little ritual for yourself across one week where you went in to codecs and had a conversation at the end of the day and told codecs about your day and i did this i did that this is the things i did and then at the end of that week it could take all of those transcripts and say okay based upon what i've heard here are like the top things that i'm gonna start to build skills for and that would be an easy way for someone who is non tactical but really wants to start doing this stuff i think to get started on like what workflows to prioritize yeah i i totally agree in fact why don't we quickly see what collects says about this so it has memory of everything that we do so i business just asset based on our conversations what else can we streamline like so it says like there's too many eval you just have one eval for everything everything yeah third podcast prepping to social and use newsletter are ideas so okay so you do research but karen then maybe can turn that into a news newsletter are angle too there's a skilled for live demo safe most not sharing any financial information there's a skill the cleanup up stuff up yeah so yeah it'll give you a bunch of my ideas yeah i i think it's pretty incredible and you really start to integrate it into all of your personal kind of data as well yeah i've integrating into my scale and i like a fitness app to track workouts so i asked a build of mc for that too so now i can tell me like hey what's your body fad and like you made some progress on these lifts and so on and so forth and yeah it feels like a very helpful partner yeah yeah peter you're living in the future my friend and thank you for coming and sharing with our audience a little bit of what the future looks like because i think there are a lot of people who could honestly just even do one basic workflow that they hate every week with like a few skills in an eval that would be a life changing experience for them don't don't you think so kieran even if you just one thing yeah i think if you watch this you have a conversation with codecs you pick one workflow you build a scale you build the eval that's an incredible way to get started on your journey of using an ai to integrate into your work and if you pick the right thing you're gonna save yourself a lot of time yeah just remember this stuff is intimidating and just like ways you say you build it really you asking guys to build it i yeah ask the ai you are just a data give did a give his give you know yeah ai is doing all the work and i don't know that's good thing or bath but it does it so yeah it's both yeah but with all of that peter thank you so much for joining us today and we'll see everybody really soon on the next episode of marketing against the grain let me tell you about a show i love hosted by my friend ross simmons each episode a hosts an in analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time with deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies brands stories and more if you like learning about history learning about the creative process you'll love this podcast this podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to system their creativity but still be organized ross just did a fantastic episode about reddit and ai distribution in the playbook that everyone is missing listen wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot spot grow at him

successful on a personal level because i made ten thousand dollars for ten minutes of work and that's like the power of the owned audience it's the craziest roi positive investment you could possibly make today i'm talking to tyler den he's the founder b hive he has a personal newsletter that over the last few years he's to a hundred and thirty thousand subscribers he is now turning that into a multi million dollar pipeline for his company bee former cto of time stumbled in into signing up to big desk energy before even knowing what h was he read my newsletter he aligned with how i'm going about building the business can pitch time on moving all of their emails over to v high and time is now one of our largest enterprise customers the funnel of it is very simple he's got a newsletter that sends people to a lead magnet get thousand people buy that lead magnet and half of those became customers of his product we're gonna take you behind the scenes on what it's like to build and run an email newsletter for your business how to actually make money doing it and you're gonna wanna stick with because we're gonna give you the exact marketing strategy and principles that bee behind at hubspot are using to grow with content you are a founder of lehigh but you're also a creator you got this member's his newsletter hundred and thirty thousand people take us behind the scenes like how does this all work so prior to even launching behalf i was the second employee at morning brew and so i saw a close and personal won the power of email the amount of money you can generate as a business the amount of loyalty you can earn from an audience who it builds this habit of wanting to come back to your content day and day again that led to a seventy five million dollar acquisition by business insider so that's kind of like my story of how even got into the email space and bi has built on like a lot of those same principles can we quote unquote democrat access that warning brew had so anyone could like an individual like myself scale a successful newsletter and i'd even expand anyone to any business because we're actually seeing a huge surge of businesses find this content marketing muscle and invest in newsletters to drive customers so i think it's a really exciting time for email what's happened is that like search traditional google search has been disrupted and so people are moving to email they're moving to linkedin and they're moving to youtube as a place to kind of own and manage their kinda core high engaged niche audience and emails is a terrific platform for doing yeah i'm a huge fan of youtube but it's you know the biggest in the creator economy but the thing about whether it's facebook instagram youtube it's all algorithm driven right and so you can post a video and you might have a hundred thousand subscribers to your youtube channel not a hundred thousand people are actually gonna get the notification or see that video everything's algorithm driven where that's really the value of email i think there's so few places on the internet that's a true owned audience and own distribution and when i send my newsletter every tuesday to a hundred thirty thousand people thirty thousand people receive it directly in their inbox and i think that's super powerful and something that other content creators and businesses should think about emails like one of the last frontiers of ownership right like even the websites being disrupted i just saw cloudflare player just posted to you now have more bought traffic than human traffic on the internet right and so websites are getting disrupted but email and the intimacy of an inbox is still like i say more important than ever i think it's something that every professional comes back to day to day to engage with their coworkers and other people outside of their business whether you're booking flights booking reservations or reading content and newsletters it kind of all lives in the inbox and so yeah obviously i'm very bullish on the space but i've also just seen up close and personal how many businesses and content creators have actually changed their lives or changed the trajectory of their business by over investing into email and so there's enough case studies there i think there's a strong reason to be bullish for it i couldn't agree more let's get into it so here this is the behind dashboard to my newsletter this is what mine looks like it's windows ninety eight themes intentionally and this was me covering our company off site a few weeks ago so it's kind of like a day in the life or a week in the life so this is the newsletter so leading up to all of that the other thing that we do at behind is we also allow you to create your own website so again this is intentionally windows ninety eight theme it could look a lot better if i wanted to but this is the website that i built the reason why that's important is because this is the foundation of the lead magnet that has helped drive a lot of growth for us hey guys we are covering a ton of ground and i know you're probably feeling a overwhelmed and you wanna learn even more well good thing we've got a ton of resources for you you can scan that qr code you can click the link in the description below and we'll get all of those for free we launched something at behind called digital products and it's exactly what it sounds like you can sell templates guides courses like whatever you want digitally even like consulting and so this is the form this is all it talk so i show this because it took me less than ten minutes to set up this digital product and what the digital product actually looks like is this so this lives on my website if you're familiar with other platforms on the internet that sell digital products or lead magnets it's very similar can kind of go through and what this one actually is basically i took all of my learnings from taking my newsletter from zero to a hundred and thirty thousand and i built a slide deck and then i went one step further and i created a video of me going through the slide deck so giving the context and color commentary of how i've been able to scale my newsletter and if you take a step back of why that's so powerful you know i've sold a thousand of these so ten thousand dollars in revenue it's like very easy hire for ten minutes of work to put this together and then everyone who has purchased this product should be in our pipeline if not already a bi user to use the platform people are gonna be like oh sold little a thousand of these well that's essentially like little less than one percent of your subscribers would have bought this yeah totally and so from this email alone this was my inbox so i literally couldn't open my inbox for two days because i had so many sales coming in the other thing i think that's really fascinating you charge for this thing a lot of people would been like oh well i i'm launching digital products on bee hive i'm gonna create a guide and i'm gonna give it away for free i'm gonna get a few thousand people then i'm gonna go in and and sell them but instead you said hey this is ten dollars this is really valuable and you still had a lot of people buy it like what's the rationale there is it to set a line of value and actually make some money or is it to filter for people who actually wanna do this in have real intent to maybe be a bee high customer i'd say all of the above with the added one of i wanted to demo the paid product feature and so i'm like dog food the product my self love that obviously it was successful on a personal level because i made ten thousand dollars for ten minutes of work and that's like the power of a owned audience it was successful from the business lens because fifty five percent of people who purchased this product became a bi user that is crazy right like give you and i i can probably go one more one layer deeper in claw and actually do the analysis of of those fifty five percent so roughly five hundred and fifty people that purchase this became a behavior user what is that mr i would assume it's north of a million or arr it's probably north of a million so like that is pretty exciting and i'd even say the flip side of that coin is the forty five percent of people who purchased this product that did not become a high user and that's just an opportunity to do more re engagement campaigns reach out to them give them a discount and get them into our pipeline because we already know there's an interest of them launching a newsletter and i've cross referenced that they're not an existing behalf user so they're either thinking about getting started or using one of our competing companies products and so yeah i i think there's just so many layers to this let's assume there's a lot of people who are kind of inspired right now they're like wow okay tyler is like got this audience he can just make a video and and make some money like that's pretty awesome how long does it take like if you're just saying like hey i wanna go and do this tomorrow like how many days months weeks am i looking at till i have like a real audience to actually start to do some of this stuff with it depends like what your business is if you're listening to this and you are a founder or you work at a company that has much higher ac right like you only need a few hundred people that are very engaged and if you can convert one of a hundred people but that one person's paying you fifty thousand dollars a year like the math is really simple in terms of like what the expected roi is and like how much you need to grow and so i think even like ignoring the business side and going to strictly the newsletter side of things when i was at morning brew the skim came before us the hustle was around the same time as us as well and they had a very clear business model which was like go for scale like what we sold the advertisers which is how we made money was we have three million readers between eighteen and thirty four and this is the audience you wanna get in front of and we can sell advertising to that but there's been this whole explosion now with like hive and other platforms that have made it easier and load the barriers of entry to launch a newsletter where you could have a cmo focused newsletter with two thousand cmos and the value of that audience is so incredibly high incredible because because you can sell hubspot to those cmos you can sell any like and hubspot would be willing to spend a lot of money to get in front of two thousand cmos that are very engaged and verified and work for you know the fortune five thousand or whatever and so there was a world where everything was scale and volume but there's so many niches now that have exploded and if you can get in front of a smaller but very qualified audience the answer doesn't need to be you need ten thousand or a hundred thirty thousand readers it could be you have a thousand readers of a very narrow focus and that's an extremely valuable audience that's the real power of what you would call like the creator economy right like you know kirin and i have written this book called loop that comes out in september we'll we can link up the pre order down below and we did a whole chapter on the creator economy because it's so important and we have an example of you might be trying to reach somebody like me and you're sending me cold emails your advertising on google and i am ignoring all of it but i will listen to david sen every week i love david i love founders i love his other podcast podcasts and if you're on there i'm probably gonna understand who you are and what you're about and that's essentially the argument you're making right now where once you have a high quality audience that trust you there's almost endless ability to monetize that audience right totally and that's why i'm so bullish on what ramp has done with david sent and because you can't listen to any of his podcast podcasts and not know what ramp is and ramp done such an excellent job of knowing who their ic is what type of content and media that they're consuming and where i think we've matured in the creator economy we see it on our end as well and we're participating in this is it used to be find someone with a lot of followers give them a lot of money because they weren't a lot of you know high upfront cost because of the the the vanity metric of followers and you would do like a one off buy or like a video or like an instagram story and what i think we're maturing to now is finding more niche audiences who actually speak your ic and doing a long term partnership we call them create partnerships so we don't sponsor any of our talent or creators for a one off email send or like a one off instagram post we do a lot of diligence and we decide that we actually wanna go deep and we wanna sponsor their newsletter for a quarter and their podcast and their social and so anyone who interacts with this content creator over the course of a quarter knows exactly who be behind is because we've hit them from a few different angles and i think that's kind of like the maturation of what it means as a brand to invest in the creator economy yeah i think that's why you're seeing more people being creators and starting newsletters right because it used to be like oh gosh it feels so daunting i need to have hundreds of thousands of people or millions of people for me to make any money doing that and that's just not the case anymore like you said you can really high quality two to five thousand people and make a ton of money for example something i'd recommend everybody doing is like think about the thing you know most in the world think about the highest leverage audience on that topic and use claude chat your tool of choice to go research with the average like advertising rates to reach those people are and you can quickly know if it's worth your time to kind of be a thought leader or to be somebody who can reach that audience in a meaningful way and i would say nine out of ten times the math is pretty overwhelmingly positive that it's worth it when a buyer ai for a solution link yours do you know if you're showing up or not in hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot au you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you could show up even more yeah i think the cold start problem continues to get easier for a few different reasons one again like the plug behind it's free to get started but even if a newsletter feels too daunting to write a thousand word essay or come up with like the design and everything i started my building public journey just posting on linkedin and x whenever i had an idea about the business when i was excited about a new feature we are launching when we made a big hire when we did something a little bit out of the ordinary that i really believed in and i wanted to share my opinion of like this is what i think it needs the company build as like a new startup up and i built this audience on primarily twitter and a little bit of linkedin of just sharing my thoughts in like very short bits of information it only took refining that over the course of two to three years and getting like a little bit of a following there before i was like i think i have something more to say where a tweet doesn't really justify like i really need to go deeper and that's what really led to me launching this newsletter so i say all of that because like if you're in this like paralysis of where do i start obviously for everything that we talked about earlier of owning your audience and distribution and posting on x doesn't mean that your father is actually see that content same with youtube same with linkedin and newsletter does there are bite sized ways to test content and kinda find your tribe on the internet before going all in i love the test at before it before you go all in but kind of follow to this it's like one of my early lessons as a marketer is that the founder is really the cmo and your job as a marketer is to help the founder be the cmo you are truly the cmo because you are taking a very founder led marketing approach if you weren't doing this like what haircut would you give to behaves revenue so give the caveat that we actually as of a few months ago do have a cmo and he's incredible so he's doing but you look for all intents of purposes still out of the cmo he has the title but like he he's his job is to bring your vision to life right for sure and and up into that point yes i would i i would agree with you that i was a quasi cmo of doing product marketing through my social channel or through the news letter and everything else the power of the newsletter too is i get hundreds of replies every time that i send my newsletter each we yes and the amount of people who have responded saying hey i i had an issue getting set up with my account but i love your content so and i trust you as the founder behind this company i would never give up on like this platform or like i would never consider going to a competitor i'm sure we've got like a lot of that this newsletter has also driven some of our largest enterprise deals and so funny enough the former cto of time somehow stumbled in into signing up the big desk energy before even knowing what h was he read my newsletter for several months and then ended up because he aligned with my thesis and vibes and and kind of how i'm going about building the business and like the direct for the product road roadmap he pitched time on moving all of their emails from whatever legacy the infrastructure they were using over to bi and time is now one of our largest enterprise customers and that all came top of funnel just because he somehow stumbled into big desk energy and signed up for that newsletter and so i think that speaks to quite a few things one of like the the product the the founder led growth the building in public the product led marketing and just the more opportunities and like the larger the surface area you have of creating content on the internet and being in my angle is very transparent and very relatable it just increases the odds that other people can find you that they have more trust and faith in you and ultimately it's like a shitty way to kind of view the world but like if everything's is a pipeline right yeah given we're both marketers here like totally you want to build that pipeline as much as you possibly can when you have trust it it is actually how you retain customers and build on that customer base in a really meaningful way and i think that matters more today in the post ai and high digital world than it ever has yeah i i'm a huge believer in that well i think that as the world gets more ai first and more digital the counter intuitive things happen that humans start caring about more emotional things they care about empathy they care about people who who care they wanna trust the companies they're working with and i think what's interesting is if you were doing a p and l you know at profit loss statement for tiny dash energy there's a lot of intangible value that you would assign to the c newsletter that would never show up in the ten dollar digital product or advertising earnings or even bee hive like revenue numbers that are just like the long term customer trust bank account goes way up every time you send a really good this letter i think business building is as much art as it is science but there's a lot of intangible things that we do and spend money on that doesn't make sense financially but there's a halo effect around investing in certain things an example of that is we have something called the bi behind media collective where we take independent journalists who want to leave their large whether it's cnn new york times is v whatever they wanna go independent but going independent means you no longer have and editor you don't have legal coverage you don't have health insurance so you don't have getty images i think there's a lot of things that these institutions like a cnn provided all of their journalists that you don't get going independent but we are again a big believer in entrepreneurship and a big believer in journal ism and so we created this media collective where you get all of that for free you get the platform for free you get health insurance you get a legal review up to like a a certain a allotted of hours every month you get getting images and so like we basically covered them legally health etcetera and we have this group of about thirty five incredible independent journalists and like when you look at the p and l like that there's zero money being generated from this initiative it's a cost but the amount of press that we've been able to generate the amount of success that these users have had independently and the amount because they are also reaching an audience and people are interested in their work who asked them hey how have you built this company how are you supported how have you been able to build this business and they can point to bi hive as the company that went out of their way to build a program that didn't have to exist i think there's a lot of hidden roi and all of that that's very hard to calculate and so that's one of many examples of when we do things where there is an art to what we do that's not a spreadsheet and very quantifiable i think bet is an incredibly valuable lesson i would encourage everybody to click thirty seconds back and to to listen to that again because this is how you make and build remarkable companies one of the best books i've ever read my life is a simple book called how to lie with statistics and it shows you just how math can be misleading everybody thinks like spreadsheets and math is very objective very binary and it's not it's just as much art as it is science and once you understand that then you start applying art and science to everything you do and you're like okay well this might not show up in the spreadsheet but i know as a human being that this is a valuable thing to do and i'm gonna go and do it because my audience cares about it and values it right totally and and to double click on what you're saying earlier around trust and like that's one of my big thesis not just from like an individual creator economy lens but from like a business lens when you can vibe code a solution and be a competitor and have like you know an equal feature set with a bunch of other competitors where do you actually differentiate in this new ai generated world and it is reputation it is trust it is the people behind it it is like the storytelling in narrative which is why so many of these non media companies are investing in media and i'd love to hear the hubspot media angle because i'm sure you oversee them that's took a huge bet that hubspot takes which i think it's really interesting but to that point like when you're saying i'm buying trust with our users which leads to retention i had an investor tell me before that people aren't buying the product for the product they're buying it because you have created an engine that you listen to feedback and you will continue to build things for their future needs and so it's not like a static like this is what the product is today we have this track record of launching three to five features every single week and if you have an issue on the product today odds are that will address it fix it to make it better and ship new products by next week and so if you do that over and over again and this is the story that i constantly tell my newsletter you're not just buying behalf you're buying an engine that can solve your problems and trust in me that i'm willing to prioritize that feedback and do that but i think it's really powerful in this age of ai regardless of what problem you're trying to solve if you want whoever you're working with to care deeply and have a depth of expertise and be learning and iterating just like you're said because if that's the case you're never gonna get left behind and i think that's what everybody's actually scared of that they're gonna spend bunch of money on anything and feel left behind a be left behind couldn't agree more and i think a lot of the conversation has been around content creators and individuals and i'm kinda curious maybe if you like wanna talk about the hustle and like the hubspot media network like why is that a bet worth taking non what you're doing is what we did would but the early days of the hubspot media network right the deal with the hubspot network is like we had this blog network before we did anything else and lots of millions of millions of people were reading it and it was great but it was a little hard to build connection with the audience and how people were consuming information had changed a lot move past search should move to email email newsletters had moved to social video had moved to youtube all of the different channels right and so what we did yeah years ago now is we bought a company called the hustle and that was an email newsletter that got us into the email newsletter game and there was also podcast podcasts that was part of the hustle called my first million which is now like a super famous business podcast that's part of our network and that allowed us to build a podcast network email newsletter network and now and then subsequently like we turn first million into a video podcast we've got out our youtube network and the reality is one it's a cheaper way to reach people and a much higher trust higher leverage way to reach people like you can argue like my times barely valuable and this is the thing i choose to do i choose to do a podcast twice a week because i believe this is actually one of the highest leverage things i can do with my time and most people believe the opposite it's like oh that's silly that's just marketing that's just like somebody doing that for their own ego go and that's not at all the case you know because you're you do this you build this right and instead it's like no this is how first all it's how you learn talking to people like you it's like oh my gosh i would pay you to to spend an hour with me and to teach me all the things you have about email you can soups so will thousand dollars by the way when when i start my email newsletter soon i'm am actually gonna be like hi thousand was bucks a man you gotta talk to me if we're we're gonna really do it maybe we'll recorded it for a second episode of the potter something as you help me fix of everything that i i get wrong with my my newsletter flow but those are the things that i think matter and i think people get too lost and like hey i have this brand and i have these products and i'm just gonna tell product driven stories right and you can tell pro driven stories but they can't be a hundred percent of your marketing and i think what you're doing what we're trying to do at hubspot is to connect with an audience deeply through stories and information to care about and then as part of that relationship they'll discover the products right and i think what's so powerful about that is obviously you are very selective in the type of brands and creators that you take on that speaks to a very specific ic who if one intent of them purchase an enterprise hubspot plan it's the craziest roi positive investment you could possibly make and that disregard the fact that these media assets like the hustle or like my first million also sell advertising and are probably net profitable if not breakeven anyway like a per asset basis if you can run these media properties profitable it's net new revenue and assuming going back to like is it two or three percent of people who eventually convert into your product because every third ad is a hubspot ad then you know the hubspot not a cheap product the lt is very large and so yeah i mean i'm such a big bowl on the thesis around content marketing and create our led marketing from like a b2b enterprise perspective to build this trust in brand affinity to eventually convert them into customers yeah we've been doing it for fifteen years and it still shocks me about how few people out there still do it and i will tell you i'd to to give you your do i think you are one of the founders who are doing it the best and most consistently and across channels and have built a really great audience and i hope everybody today learned what was possible in actually building any an owned audience on email and how you can actually build a real business or expand the business you have with that audience and tyler we really appreciate you being on the show today thanks for having me awesome thanks everyone we'll see you real soon on the next episode of marketing against the ukraine let me tell you about a show i love hosted by my friend ross simmons each episode a hosts an in analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time with deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies brands stories and more if you like learning about history learning about the creative process you'll love this podcast this podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to system their creativity but still be organized ross just did a fantastic episode about reddit and ai distribution in the playbook that everyone is missing listen wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the clients whole history calls of support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hubspot grow

today we're covering the single best ai productivity workflow i have ever seen you are going to get a second brain we're joined by matt wolf he's gonna break down how to build this system in fifteen minutes and it's gonna transform your personal productivity and your work life let's get to today's show day on the show we are gonna show you how to build a second brain i'm joined by matt wolf and he gonna break down how to take all of the information your meetings your notes to basically build the second brain personal wiki so that you can always have access to everything you need and basically be a hundred times smarter than you are today so matt welcome to the show thanks so much for being here yeah thanks for having me you again love it when you come on you always have really dope things to show and what we're show you today i would argue is like the most popular non coding use of something like cloud code or open eyes codecs that exists right now and it all started with a tweet from ar carp who is one of the early pioneers of artificial intelligence maybe like give us a little background of like what the heck we're talking about here yeah so this tweet here is from andre ka and this sort of set off the whole thing where everybody was talking about building these ll wiki and his tweet here actually kinda gets into the weeds but you can see twenty point eight million views it's a lot so this one post here kind of set people down this path but essentially what this tweet is saying is that he was experimenting with building like this internal wiki what he's doing is he's going around and he's using ob which we'll talk about what ob cdn is in a minute here and he was using a ide or coding platform this actually works with you know claude c cloud code or codecs or cursor or any tool you wanna use it doesn't really matter i personally use codecs but what you do is you use your ide and you save these markdown files into ob so the way i've been using it just to kind of clarify what i'm talking about here is i watch a lot of youtube videos and i read a lot of articles and i save the transcripts and those articles all into this ob sort of markdown database and what happens is these just build up and build up and build up well this layer that andre carp sort of mapped out here is the layer where an ll looks at all of the stuff that you're throwing inside of ob city and all of these markdown down files of transcripts and articles and things like that it looks at all of these and sort of cross links some when you think of something like wikipedia you'll read a wikipedia article and you'll see somebody's name mentioned to the wikipedia article you click on that person's name and it links to the wikipedia article of that person and you read that article and maybe talks about the product that they invented and you click on that link and it links to the wikipedia page of the product that person invented and everything just sort of becomes this like network of interconnected information so that's essentially what it is i don't know if that explanation was two in the weeds but it's like your own little personal curated internet exactly right it's just like you've almost created all the stuff that you like and the all are stitching it together to make it its own little mini internet that serves as a context for any work you wanna do any questions you might have anything you wanna do on your day to day life is that right yeah exactly exactly and it finds the interconnection between the things as well so sometimes they'll even find connections between things where maybe you're not making the connection between right so like maybe you're putting in information about you know ae and you're putting in information about facebook ads and those are two separate like little silos inside of your document database but it'll realize that those are both about marketing and growing your business and it'll find those interconnection and sort of link those things together as well so it starts to build out this network of inter linked information and ideas and sometimes it'll find inter that you might not even be thinking of which is the magic of having an l working in the background and do all the things you don't have the time or wouldn't think of in the first place exactly exactly if you're like me and you're watching show you're like i gotta go do this now i wanna try to build this we've got you you can scan the qr code or you can click the link in the description below we've got all of the resources all the instructions you need to build this yourself so again scan that qr code click the link and get started today so we have this tweet that was read by twenty million people it has inspired thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people like yourself to go and build these systems that you just described maybe take us through like you mentioned the ob subsidiary thing i'm not a web developer we're talking to founders and marketers who probably aren't spinning all their day in ide ease and all these technical things like give us the like lay of the land like hey i'm just a guy who wants to be smarter and have more information what am i gotta do so you've got two main tools here you've got ob this is ob on my screen right here now ob is just a markdown file organizer so a markdown file is essentially just a text file with some additional formatting on it that's really all it is this is like a markdown file here this is my index markdown file and you can actually see everything that's saved into my wiki here this is like a just a giant table contents off everything yep so you can see down here here's different concepts that are saved into it but again this is just a text file with some extra formatting on it but all of these inner inter link to these concepts right so i've got topics and entities here you could see i've got answer engine optimization as one of them there's seven sources inside of my wiki for answer engine optimization i click into this page you can see it sort of is inter linked into this answer engine optimization and then down here you can see here's the seven sources of content that i have about this specific topic and all of this stuff kind of cross links between each other i didn't do any of that cross linking that's the large language model reading these text files and going this text file kinda looks like this text file mh let's connect the two so that's what ob is it's just a a markdown file organizer so if i click into concepts here each one of these concepts is essentially just another text file that links to other text files and so ob epsilon is a free application that you download yes how do you get stuff into it okay so ob upstate also has a chrome extension so if i open up my chrome here we've got this ob upstate chrome extension up here and i literally just click this and it will pull it in so right now i'm looking at a tweet and you can see here's the entire tweet i just clicked add to ob and they profile inside of my knowledge base okay so what we have here is this free ob app that is essentially a knowledge based personal wiki and the private way you get stuff in there i assume you can manually copy and paste stuff in there but the primary way is through like chrome extension where you're just like hey i'm consuming this thing i assumed as like transcripts of youtube videos and all that kind of stuff and you're just popping them right in yep exactly exactly like in fact here's the future pdf youtube channel here i actually didn't add this video about a here because i wanted to have one that was an actual example here so if i come up to the ob upstate web clipper it takes a second but look it's got the entire trends nice i see already here so i just press this one button and it saves it into my ob upstate vault so yeah now we've got this entire transcript from this video with kevin in it all here inside of my city vault now this one that i just saved in here it's not processed yet see it's in this folder called raw and this is just anything i dump in here this is my inbox this is where the stuff gets saved now you need to have the ll sort of review all of this find the interconnection file it into concepts break it out into you know what youtube channel it came from and do all of that kind of stuff that's where we start playing around with codecs or you know it could be cloud code it could be clogged yep whatever somebody wants to use in this whatever you wanna use were you talking about codecs today because your codecs yeah so i use codecs for this and what i do in codecs is i would literally come here and just say process all the files in the raw folder all i need to do and it knows exactly how to process the files in the raw folder and the way it processes the files in the raw folder is inside of your ob database you've got this little file here called agents dot md this literally tells codecs or whatever ide you're using it tells it how to handle specific prompts mh so essentially think of a sub prompts these are just prompts that if i tell it to go and process something well i've got down here the ingest when the user adds a source and ask the l to process it do these steps and this is just a prompt so it's just taking this specific prompt here and throwing it into codecs and now codecs is running this entire prompt for me read the source from the raw before processing validate the same source url hasn't already been processed a lot of times i'll throw the same youtube video in there not realizing i've already saved it once so it has a little double check on it create or update generated sources create update top pages in the wiki slash topics create update the entity overview synthesis or comparison pages so usually it takes like two minutes to process but one other thing that i like about codecs is they've got these automations here and i can actually set these automations to run on a schedule so if i click in here this is just a prompt that's gonna run on a schedule if there are any un processed files in the raw directory please process them now and this one actually is set to run at twelve fifty am pretty much every single day so this just happens at night every single night i'll just be kind of dumping stuff in throughout the day all day long and then at night when i'm asleep it processes everything that was in the raw folder i just manually told it to process this now so we can kinda see what happens but this actually does happen in the background without me actually needing to do anything on a normal basis and so what's happening is like you're going out your clip and stuff it's going to that raw folder then the agents going in reading at all interconnect it and making it easily accessible for the future because you might park it there for days weeks until you're ready in this case you did an ao or call you're saying okay i'm working on an project and i've got these specific questions and then it's gonna go access that and all the other content really quickly to get you the best answer possible exactly exactly in fact i actually gave it this prompt before we jumped on oh please based on what i saved into the wiki tell me the best strategy to get my website future tools to show up within chat gp and claude responses and we could see this should optimize less like a directory and more like a said recommendation authority the highest leverage strategy you can see exactly what it referenced from within my wiki here keep the gates open your robots dot text currently allows all which is good open says oa search bot controls chat gp search inclusion and says clutch search bot etcetera here keep those allowed monitor logs and treat training bots separately from search retrieval bot and then it shows the sources and these are various sources inside of my wiki yeah it's pretty remarkable that you can get just a super high quality and also concise response i would say it's not like this like long typical ll of like let me generate a thirty page report that doesn't say much of anything for you right right and it can do that because when you've given it good instructions and you've given it all the good context matt we are doing this in codecs and for folks who aren't familiar with codecs maybe just explain what the heck codecs is and how do you set it up yeah so codecs is sort of chat gp version of cloud code right it's their app for essentially writing code and you mentioned that that last response was fairly concise well that's one of the things that codecs is known for when you think of like chat gp versus codecs mh they're a sort of buzz word now called harness right they're both using the same underlying large language model but the system prompt around each one is different codecs is actually tuned to be very concise get to the point just write the code that's necessary and don't sort of ramble on i can actually tell codecs you know treat this like a chat gp response don't be brief ramble as much as you want and it will actually give me a long sort of drawn out message same with chat chat tends to be optimized to give you longer more detailed messages but if you gave it a prompt be as concise as possible tell me as little as i possibly need to know it we'll do that as well but codecs is just like their sort of app for doing code so if you ever use visual studio code if you've ever used claude code if you've ever used cursor or whatever this is kind of chat gp or open version of that it is their platform for writing code and if you've ever used any of those other ones that are sort of based on visual studio code this one looks quite a bit different but it's designed to just be very simple and give you just what you need to know and what you need to do and not a whole lot else so you get this by just going to open on open website i believe they just have like a link to download it's a standalone app on your computer and what i what i like about it matt is it's a little less intimidating than cloud code like there's some actual ui and structure you're not just in a terminal window which i think can be intimidating for people who aren't used to being in a terminal window but you're just gonna go and and download codecs like you're showing here and it's gonna use just whatever credits you have in your chat gp subscription whether it's free or max or anywhere in between like that's it's just gonna consume whatever you have access to in your regular chat gp account yeah exactly the app itself is free to use the bigger the open account you have right you've got like the eight dollar a month go plan all the way up to the two hundred dollar a month pro plan and depending on which plan you have you get a different amount of credit or tokens to use inside even free plans even if you're on a chat free plan you do get a certain amount of usage yeah but the usage is you know it grows based on how big of a plan you've got but you can absolutely do this with the free plan you you don't actually need to have a codex or a chat g paid plan to do what we're showing off here you know that feeling when the strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has the it down and actually create all that content that someone is you and it's due tomorrow breeze assistant from hubspot can help it works right inside hubspot drafting campaign copy blog post emails all in your voice all ground in your actual customer data so you don't have to create content you create content that converts check out hubspot dot com to learn more yeah and so when we go back into codecs what we're really saying is like we now have this kind of easy to use way to access this personal wiki that you build over in ob citi right it's like got this little personal internet wiki database codecs has access to everything the question here is like how do codex get access to it before we go and talk about some of the queen's use cases here so when you set up a ob cdn for the first time it's gonna say what folder do you wanna install ob on you install it in whatever folder you want on your hard drive and then when you come into codecs here you would just click on create a new project use an existing folder when you select this use an existing folder you would just select whatever folder you would installed your ob city in vault on and then it can just read everything inside of that folder from here on out that's as simple as it is so that's how it does that but you can actually go even further with codecs and give it access to a whole bunch of other stuff right so you can give it access to chrome this is actually brand new oh that's the just it access to chrome like this week that we're recording this could give it access to spreadsheets github slack notion mine has access to my gmail my google calendar my google drive so it could actually cross reference stuff that i'm asking it with my calendar it can actually read my emails one of the things that i often do inside of codecs now is say skim my entire inbox and look for emails that you can respond to based on what's on my calendar and what's in my wiki so it will actually use that information to help respond to emails as well so you can do some really really cool stuff once you start start adding in some of these plug as well and i think what's really interesting about it matt is that we were talking before the show and we're like you know is really awesome like there's so much you can do here and it's also like you can do so much and accomplish nothing right yeah yeah because there's so much to build you could just keep piling information and information into a system like this and you're like wait i'm like a weekend and i have this really cool second brain but like i'm not using it for that much yeah and so what i wanted to talk about before we close out was just like what are the ways if i was trying to grow a business if i was a marketer as an entrepreneur that i would use the system like this to be really powerful for me you know i i'm constantly in consume mode but i feel like a lot of the stuff that i consume just sort of goes nowhere i consume it and then it's kind of like i gotta move on with my life this is a way to sort of res it again in the future so one of the things you can do is you can actually create an automation here and let's say like every day at nine am send me a message with some recommendations of what i can do in my business based on some of the stuff i've recently saved into my wiki i actually have a morning brief synced up to my slack where every morning in slack i get a message at nine am that says like based on the stuff that you've saved inside of your wiki over the last couple weeks here's what i recommend you try next and it just proactively very cool brings me things that's one of the directions ai is moving into right now that i'm sort of most excited about is ai being more proactive versus you needing to go and prompt it all the time we're getting to a point now where ai is starting to run on either like cro jobs or like these automations inside of something like codecs where it can actually start to like come to you and say hey here's what i think you should be doing next so i really really love that element of it but some of the other things that i'm doing with it is i created a sort of personal networking crm inside of it as well so whenever i meet somebody at a conference i say like here's the name here's what i met them it automatically knows the date already just from the date i'm entering it here's some of the things we talked about and then later on if i bump into that person at another event i can kinda you know pull up in my phone i mean this question again and it'll say oh yeah you met this person at this place they have a dog named this you guys talked about you know baseball for a little bit or or whatever right and i can quickly remember what conversation i had with that person six months ago and i've actively used that and works really really well so i've i've been doing that kind of stuff and it saves the the the contact information of the people inside of the wiki as well would say this whole category we talk about is like kinda proactive personal productivity where exactly ai and agents are helping you be more productive but not like you having to remember to ask them all these things but like they're starting to insert themselves into your kind of core workflow and daily schedule which is super cool because email slack and calendar access lets them do that in the ability to to schedule tasks and everything kinda makes all of that possible which is really really cool i think there's some other really cool marketing use cases here mh one is like everybody's always interested what their competitors are doing you can easily see making a competitive intelligence database here right where you have agents that are looking for changes on websites looking for new products looking for new news articles all of those things and not just giving you summaries but giving you proactive recommendations on if you need to do something based on this information right absolutely like i i've got one automation set up so a lot of sites these days don't use rs feeds anymore which kind of bum me out really set up it's really easy to set up in automation where whenever open ai or and throw make writes a new blog post the rs feed like alerts you hey there's a new post on this site but those two specific sites don't have rs feeds so i actually set up an automation that looks at the website's site map and alerts me whenever there's a new page added to the website's site map and so i get like almost instant notifications whenever ant philanthropic open ai google deep mind meta ai blog any of these websites actually add a new page to their site map now sometimes it's like they updated their terms of service or something like that right but i would say ninety five percent of the time it's a new blog post that i'm getting almost like instantly the the moment it goes up so that's a you know one of the secret weapons that i used to stay on top of the news as it's happening is like create a little agent that's constantly watching the site maps of these websites for a new page added to the site map well and when you assure the plug a minute ago we've you you talked about that chrome became a new plugin and it's not just like getting data from chrome it's that codecs can use chrome to browse absolutely right and if you're a marketer that's really really powerful because then you can use codecs for ae audits you can use it for add testing and optimization you can use it for website audits for product marketing collateral audits all of these things where you can basically just build a section of your wiki that you know product marketing knowledge best practices skills and then have codecs go and deploy it on whatever part of your site or a competitor site that you're working on that day and honestly that setup is gonna save you so much time because you've think you're able to just like speed all of the work and optimization and really like go through all the iterations and options you might have as you're trying to rethink that work which i think probably makes codecs for marketers the most interesting option to run this system in because the computer use is i think the best currently in codecs yeah yeah it works really well i will admit the computer use and the chrome use they're almost agonizing slow if you try to sit there and watch it go and do this tough that you're just kinda like i need to walk away yeah yeah you need to walk away like i almost wanna start moving the mouse for it and mean like alright but let me nudge you along here but they they they do work really really well one other use case that i i really love that sort of ties back to the wiki and this is some thing i really gotten the habit of doing is i'm a big journal myself so at the end of every single day i loved to just sort of journal on my day i i love to say like here's the stuff that i accomplished throughout the day here's the things that i build here's the conversations i had as well as you know struggles here something that i'm still struggling with i need an idea for a video for tuesday but i don't have an idea yet or you know whatever's is on my mind i just sort of brain dump it all into a journal and i journal now directly into codecs and i don't know if you notice but when i was showing you my ob vault here there is actually a journal sort of code you know code here and what it actually does is it cross references my journal with everything that's in my wiki so i save a lot of mindset stuff in my wiki i saved a lot of like youtube growth strategy stuff in my wiki things like that and it will actually read my journal entry and then say based on everything you saved over time here's what i found that's relevant to what you just journal on and for me that's probably been the absolute most useful helpful thing that i've done with all of this is just journal on everything just brain dump everything that's in my head and let it use the wiki and it also will pull the knowledge from like the the l knowledge that's just you know trained on anyway but it will sort of ground itself with the wiki first and it'll say hey this video from you know mark has as bran said you should be thinking about this this video you know from future pdf said you should try this right so it will actually pull in a lot of the stuff from the wiki and combine that with the sort of general knowledge that's in the ll and i don't know if you've ever like journal into chat gp but it's usually pretty helpful and has some pretty good advice yeah that does but now the advice is very very very tailored to the type of content you're looking and actively consuming as well that's pretty sweet okay so like closing thought of where i think this is all going is that ai is still very single player mode right like if you look at what we talked about today it's like this is all just math stuff and the files actually sit on your computer right they're not in the cloud yep all of this stuff resides on your actual computer and i think this is gonna be transformative for teams as this technology continues to evolve and imagine you're on a small team and all of you you have this collaborative wiki of context is gonna be really valuable and i think gonna be a game changer the other like just pet rock i have matt and a we keep talking about this here and i offline is like i can't wait for there to be a book format that's just a markdown file like when you pay a lot of money for just a markdown file of some of the books you love to be able to like inject them into these types of systems yeah i would love that i mean right now i think the bottleneck is probably more context windows from these models than anything else but yeah i mean that would but you still can't go and get the raw text file of the book anywhere yeah i mean if you look hard enough there's definitely places but they're not there there's some ethical questions there correct meta and philanthropic have already gone those routes i that's fair i was saying you're near mortal like me love to pay like the thirty bucks and have the context of this book in my ai systems i think k and i just finished the loop marketing book and i think we're going to probably have a special markdown file version for people so they can do that which which would be pretty cool but yeah i wouldn't be surprised if you know author start doing that is this sort of like value add thing that would be kind of cool to see i mean can also see why they absolutely would not wanna do that but it would be kind of cool i can see some marketer brains doing that as well this marketer brain is gonna do it because i want the ideas to spread and this how get the idea to spread if you're optimizing for idea spread i think it's a very smart smart thing to do so i don't think there's the flash in the pan use case or or product to me this seems like we're very early on and what is going to be just a new way that a lot of individuals and in the future teams work and i think we just went over some really helpful use cases for both personal productivity and for marketing that can take this system in action and my last closing question for matt people probably wondering wow it looks like matt's spent a bunch of time to do all this like how long do you think it takes to get like a good basic version of this up and running probably fifteen minutes or and i say that because andre carp he actually put up a a page on github with this method so you can literally open up your codecs open up your ob city involved copy and paste his github page in and say build this for me and then just let ai sort of build the initial bones for you so just doing it that way is very very very quick you know and then obviously the amount of time it takes to just like inject new stuff into it that's that's a sort of ongoing for minutes a day kind of thing yeah but you can set it up really really quickly because you can just point ai at the place that teaches it how to go and build this for you the beauty of ai is that you as long as you get the right instructions it can do stuff while you're doing other things which is fantastic matt as always it has been awesome to have you on the show i've learned a ton i've been fascinated with the second brain concept i've yet to build mine and now i'm am going to go get codecs and get this going so thank you so much and we'll see everybody really soon on marketing against the great thank you i wanna tell you about a podcast i love it's called nudge it's hosted by phil ag it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals and it's the uk's fastest growing business podcast what i love about it is that the nudge listeners love no fluff no bs evidence based marketing tactics they get in each episode you're gonna wanna listen because this is like an nba worth of insight in every single podcast and entrepreneurs you're gonna love the show because it's filled with repeatable proven studies not hearsay say not one off success stories marketers you're gonna love it because it discusses the psychology behind great marketing and what marketers are getting wrong listen to the nudge wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything fully integrate well i can see the client's whole history calls port tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot hubspot grow it's

google just reinvented the front door of the internet google search will never be the same again they did at their big google io event that was huge news and your marketing team probably is working for the old version of google search not the new version on today today's show i'm gonna show you the three things you're probably getting wrong and three solutions you can do tomorrow start getting more visibility with ai search and win in the new world so google just had its big io of it and that's a big conference where google announces changes to all things in google hardware software but in this case specific for somebody who's doing marketing or running a company search google search is an incredible channel if you wanna grow your business but it's changing dramatically google is rebuilding the search box logan cop patrick friend of the show and works at ai and google he also agrees that google's is making its biggest overhaul to search in twenty five years and so let's look at what google's is actually doing here's the demo of the new google search experience alright so ask google so instead of keywords it's making it a default ai experience it shows you your in ai about i wanna pick up a new hobby i'm thinking about pottery is a throwing wheel or hand building easier to learn so it's asking all these questions it's what is showing you instead of a couple keywords people are now asking a couple sentences that is what the search experience is moving to a google ai by default long prompts and questions versus short keywords that is a massive change to how people search and discover online right now so the first thing that's happened i io owe is what i just show you the search box is fundamentally different and it's ai first and the important thing to know about all this is that you have a very different experience so shane posted an awesome article on zero click search and i basically looked at a ton of keyword data and the percentages of searches that don't end with a click and he cites that google aids ai mode is now over two and a half billion monthly users so it's not just like a little people using ai search now a massive percentage of the population using ai search and google's ai mode basically shows that ninety three percent of searches and without a click to your website and a traditional search engine optimization what you would do is you would look at referral traffic from google you would extrapolate what keywords that referral traffic came from and then you'd go work on where you rank in those keywords that is no longer the game the game is fundamentally changed if it's time to move to a new game because it's not gonna go back to the old way the other thing i think it was interesting in shane article is that consumers like the new experience and that we're seeing a big jump in zero clicks search traffic as google moves to this new ai experience and so the next question you'd ask is like well why do consumers like it so much well i i i like the old google search what happened well ai mode has gotten a lot better and it now has these agents they call information agents would actually work and do work in the background and this has changed the experience for consumers drastically and if you're new to marketing one way to think about marketing is marketing is a reaction to how consumer behavior changes and this change in search is a big shift to consumer behavior so how does that translate if you're doing marketing it means that search is no longer a list of links and instead it's one answer and that answer is a more detailed answer provided by an all and what's even louder is that that answer isn't just like a bunch of text it can now be a custom widget or visual and it's becoming much more custom and personal to the user and what's interesting is that there is these agents now these informational agents that sitting between you and your prospective customer doing work for them that are now becoming an audience in the search landscape and to help make this real for you i'm gonna do a live demo now of google's ai mode and show you exactly what this means in practice alright so i went over to google ai mode because it's still not on by default for me yet but anybody can go to google mode what i'm telling you under lining this like three times in the show today is that this experience i'm about to show you is becoming default for everyone using google and that is a big change that is why logan who is in the midst of all things ai in search is like this is the biggest change to search in twenty five years so i wanna ask you a question people would ask you i'm a b b marketer so i'm gonna ask you a b b question what's the best ai sales agent platform for a two hundred person software as a service company this is a question that if you're out there building software you would certainly ask and let's see what ai mode does for us i know we covered a lot on ai search today you probably have some questions we are giving you free a additional resources to answer any of those you can scan that qr code or click the link in the description below and go get everything you need you see first of all real quick no links no ten blue links right that we don't have a ten blue links what is fascinating and what i'd love about how search as an experience evolving is that it's showing you this whole sidebar alongside of where the key information came from and all the places if you did want to go dive deeper you could go which is awesome but you can also get rid of that if you want and so it's saying that land base artisan hubspot we're hubspot we have an amazing product you should go go do this but what's interesting is that it's giving you what each of these companies good at and why it's the best option eleven x and again what you're seeing is that ai search is good at building these custom experiences in this case a custom table comparison oh who's got a fully native crm we do so we're standing out as hubspot as part of that and then what you're seeing is that more detailed prompt like this turns into a longer conversation because now it's gonna ask you more the ing english about your company what crm you use what is your business model all of these things to help refine the recommendation and ultimately get you a much better response this is different than the ten blue links this is a experience that's rolling out to everyone and we'll see the amount of clicks that these supplemental articles get but what i'm here to tell you is you can no longer measure those tip blue links and that keyword ranking traffic in the way that it used to and if you do that your dashboard is just gonna be fundamentally lying to you what about our ask a solution like yours does your business come up most companies have no idea and by the time they find out they've already lost the deal to someone who did hubspot au helps you show up in those moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first form fill that's the moment hubspot is built for head to hubspot dot com slash au o to try that tool for free today and when i say your dashboard is lying to you what do i actually mean here's the uncomfortable data that i wanna go over with you the overlap between google's top ten organic search results and sources that ai mode is using in the search that we just did for example is actually very low you would think that oh if i rank in the top of google search then i will also be the top sources that is used to mode and that's fundamentally not what's happening so i found data from my code that suggests that it's like somewhere between seventeen to thirty six percent overlap depending on the query and so if you were ranked number one in old school google search that means you have about a seventeen to thirty six percent chance of being cited as an answer so you went from being the d defective facto option to basically at best having a third of a chance of being cited that is a completely different game this shows you how the rules of the game have fundamentally changed and because of this you're seeing traffic to publishers fall dramatically and it's likely happened to you i know it's happened to me it's happened to us at hubspot over the last like two years and it's been painful and it's not coming back like i think that's the uncomfortable truth is that we can all hope and wish for the days of old google search because it was such an amazing marketing channel that is no longer something we should be considering or thinking is happening what is happening is that for branded search in these ai overview the click through rate goes way up we found that you have an eighteen percent click through rate when ai overview appear in kind of branded queries versus non branded queries so one of the that tells me is brand is gonna continue to be more important than ever gone are the days of not worrying about your brand and optimizing for the mechanics of paid search or organic search you have to care about your you have to have real brand awareness and credibility in the market to stand out and take advantage of ai search and so when it comes to ai search there's mentions in their citations and mentions you know in that example i showed you hubspot was mentioned as one of the options to consider citations where all those links in that right hand bar and what's interesting is if you can become cited in an ai overview you get thirty five percent more organic clicks and ninety one percent more paid clicks than if you're un undecided and that's again this is from really good icon study that i can link down below so if you're a founder running company you're you're running a marketing team out there i think there are fundamentally three mistakes i see happening out in the world right now and we can fix them right now and i'm here to help you the first mistake is measuring traffic from search instead of mentions and citation the measurement of ai search is very different we talked a little bit about this on the show but what you wanna do is you wanna look at your ai visibility for a given prompt am i being mentioned showing up in that response where am i being cited am i being linked to in that response and across different parts of my product in my audience what does that ai visibility look like our hubspot aa product it's a great way to do that there's lots of other good products and you need to move to measuring your citations and mentions that's step number one okay the second thing you need to do is stop writing for searching and crawl and start writing for your customers because ai is reading your content like it's your customer the old seo playbook was pick a keyword write a two thousand word blog post hit those h two's do some internal links and that worked and when google was crawling and matching strings of data that worked really well ai isn't matching strings of data and using page it's s synthesized arguments and consensus from all over the internet and the data it's been trained on the kind of content most bugs are stuffed with is now actually invisible so the people who are gonna survive this new wave of ai search are the ones that have proprietary data original research task based content completion i did a whole episode on the six pillars of really quality content i have a go check that out because that is exactly what you need to do to write for your customer and not for the search crawl which is what you need to be doing now the third thing you need to do is maybe the biggest one that team that used to chase keyword rankings might not have the skills you need to win in this ai search world so whether it's somebody on your team whether it was an agency you hired a contractor you're hired whether it's you yourself if you're doing work to get search traffic you need to know that the skills have changed and so you need to get a new set of skills on your search strategy and this is what we call ai search optimization skills how what we call it a answer engine optimization but what's happening here is it's a little bit p it's a little bit product marketing it's a little bit journalism and data journalism it's a hodgepodge of different skills it's not doing a bunch of cold outreach for backlink campaigns it's about how do i write for humans not search engines but how do i then amplify that content across reddit across linkedin across youtube these are some of the highest citation sites that ai search uses it's p r because when you get published on the sites like fortune or forbes or ink or what have you ai search is using those to determine if you're actually an authority and have some credibility on the topic that you are ranking for what ai is search is doing it's looking for consensus across a whole wide variety of sites and so you need more distribution it's not just about like building some links and ob about the search in your results page it's do i show up on linkedin do i show up on reddit do i show up on youtube do i show up on you know customer review sites etcetera if you're showing up there then ai is gonna see a consensus view that you might be the right answer for the given question it's trying to answer and so this is very different than traditional search and you can see this requires a different set of skills and more importantly a different strategy than you're currently executing so you have to make sure you have the skills necessary to succeed and win in this new world so those are the three things you should do i wanna make this even more actionable for you i really want this to be the most valuable piece of content you're gonna watch this week so i wanna tell you three things you should do immediately tomorrow morning here are three things you can go and do now the first thing you wanna run a citation audit you wanna find a series of prompts ten to fifteen of them and you can do this manually yourself if you don't wanna go and use a tool yet type them all and these are ten or fifteen things your buyer might be searching for relevant to your company based on things you know about your product or things that people have searched for in the past type them in into google mode not google search screenshot every answer are you mentioned are you cited are your competitors where's is google getting this data from if for a given an answer they're pulling from some youtube videos and you don't have any youtube content on that answer that tells you a lot so go and do that immediately the second is get rid of the content calendar the content calendar which i think of as a mindset of like oh how many two thousand word blog post can i publish in a given day or week on these topics that's just not the game to play anymore and instead of having this big labor content calendar go back to how do i create unique information on data on personal examples customer case studies things that are unique to my business that ai search would find really helpful in trying to answer a given question you know the more specific the more original the more helpful ai is gonna to find it so move from a generic content calendar to a content program that is rooted in depth data and specificity that's the second thing you should do the third thing is somebody needs to be a charge either you're in charge and need to go tell your boss that this is a top priority for you where somebody on your team needs to be in charge they need to be the lead and say hey in the next quarter we're gonna go from not caring about ai visibility not really understanding what's happening we have woken it up we know what's happening we know we need to do things differently and because of that this person is going to do the audit they're gonna overall overhaul our content strategy they're going to track our visibility week tweak to understand what progress we're making with our new strategy and really be the core leader and directly responsible individual and we are going to then look at our visibility rise all these ai search engines and as visibility rises we're gonna see leads in revenue rise as well and having one person who's obsessed about this even if that's you is a big game changer the argument isn't is ai hurting search everybody knows that it's hurting traditional search the argument is google rebuilt the front door of the internet this week that is a massive shift and the playbook for every marketing team that it's been running for seo has changed and it won't work anymore but you don't need to panic because the rules of this new game are getting clear and there are actionable things you could do and i just went through them all with you stop measuring traffic start measuring citations mentions ai visibility stop publishing bland generic content start publishing sources and data and unique perspective and have people on your team building these new ai skills versus leaning too hard into the traditional seo skills companies that do this over the next ninety days are gonna be really successful you're gonna see a whole change in how are you're discovered and found online i'm excited to hear what you do please leave comments if this video was helpful if you have follow up questions or if there's other aspects of this topic you want me to cover in the future really appreciate you hit like hit subscribe we'll see you really soon on marketing against the great wanna tell you about a podcast i love it's called nudge it's hosted by phil ag it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals and to the uk's fastest growing business podcast what i love about it is that the nudge listeners love no fluff no bs evidence based marketing tactics that get in each episode you're gonna wanna listen because this is like an nba worth of insight in every single podcast and entrepreneurs gonna love the show because it's filled with repeatable proven studies not hearsay say not one off success stories marketers you're gonna love it because it discusses the psychology behind great marketing and what marketers are getting wrong listen to the nudge wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully into well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally miss hotspot spot grow better

alright welcome to today's show we're here with da who is one of the biggest youtubers on the planet an overall creative force and we're talking storytelling and we're talking about how brand should work with creators on today's show dart thanks so much for joining us on i'm marketing against the grain today yeah thanks this is a true honor you've built this incredible youtube audience and maybe to just give everybody a little bit of backstory we have a quick video that kinda tells you how we got here hey i have evolution of da okay i love nothing like failing it a bunch of stuff early in life man i mean that's pretty that's pretty exciting you have you so you first of all you have a samsung tv show coming that's congrats that's a big deal thank you i appreciate it there's a lot of people when i would say i'm a youtuber in traditional film that would just sort of roll their eyes and then only what i got to deal with samsung and we started appearing on tv did a lot of folks that actually take us a little bit more serious so it's funny how it works you can have a very large audience a very large you know viewership or even studio but until you actually hit traditional platforms as when traditional folks start to give you a little bit of street cr well and i think that's kind of what the the opportunity is especially for brands or marketers is to go work with people like yourself before all that traditional validation because your youtube audience not just the size but the engagement of that audience it's one of the biggest audiences on video today and if you're outside of the youtube ecosystem you might not realize that but i imagine that you've had huge brand success with your early partners because they were able to support you in a way that might have seen a little risky at the time to maybe some conservative brands but like just walk us through like what does that look like what are the early partnerships there are people watching the show are like oh man how would i ever work with somebody like da to actually get my brand out there yeah it's a great question so since you mentioned an audience stats this all started in my apartment where i was just trying to talk to the camera and help people that were going through some kind of a hard time in their life the same types of hard times that i had been through at that time my format was talking directly to camera nobody would watch those videos yeah just i just keep iterating you know different formats and especially because my messaging was all about not keeping up after your dreams not keeping up after you've been knocked down i couldn't give up on my you know content creation process and putting out videos so it i kept iterating eventually i landed on storytelling and i would just have friends and family members be actors in videos and when i started that new format that's when things took off so you know in the beginning i couldn't even get three hundred and fifty views on a video now we're averaging about three hundred and fifty million views a week u so just for you know some sort of context because when we talked about these big numbers you know it's hard to visualize that's about three times the super bowl audience every week and every day we get more long form views than the game of thrones season finale just to have some sort of context around the numbers across all platform da studios has a hundred and seventy million followers but i look at it more than just audience reach because audience to me are folks that are watching what i'm most passionate about is the community that we've built because the community are a group that is actually emotionally connected and three out of four of our community members say that they feel compelled to take some sort of positive action in their life after watching one of our videos and eighty nine percent of our audience says that watching our videos is actually more therapeutic to them than talking to friends or family members or even a therapist so you know i'm pretty excited about the emotional connection that we've been able to build with our community and that emotional connection now has been able to translate to us working with brands and helping them solve the piece of helping to tell them their stories helping them build communities and you know building an audience that really resonates with their messaging hey if you love the video today we've got a bunch of resources you can scan that qr code on the screen you can click the link in the description below and check those out you said you were started a one format and you iterate your way to another format how long did that take and what were some of the revelations along the way that helped you get into the win format yeah so in the beginning it was me talking to camera the message was like hey what if michael jordan quit playing basketball after he got cut from his high school basketball team and no one would quite watch those videos and then my wife would tell me like don't tell them show them and that really landed on me so i started storytelling instead and i started talking about my own experiences here's what happened in my life here's the lesson that i learned from it and once i started storytelling my views would still i wasn't anything a ton of views but i'd go from you know maybe ten views to like a hundred views and then i started trying different formats where i'd incorporate like two d animations in my messaging to make it more visual i started adding b roll footage that you can license online and none of that was quite again getting me like past you know a thousand views at that time but then i sorta of had this eureka moment where i was writing a script on a napkin i was doing a video about in fidelity and i was talking about how in fidelity could happen with relatively seemingly innocent acts and the story i was coming up with was about this husband who was in the kitchen scrolling facebook and he happened to see his exes post and he was debating if he should like it or not while his wife was cooking him dinner in the kitchen and had her back to him and as writing this i happen to look up and my brother law is visiting me he's in my kitchen scrolling facebook because facebook was the platform back then and hit and my wife's friend was in the kitchen cooking something with her back towards him so that was my big sort of uri eureka moment i walked over them and i said oh my gosh would you guys be in a video of mind mine because keep in mind up until then all my content was just me talking to camera right and they were like yeah we'd love to be in a video but what do we have to and i was like nothing all you have to do is do exactly what you're doing right now i mean hindsight i probably should've have told him that i'm gonna portray as a cheaper for i i didn't think that would actually watch those videos so you know i had my videographer start recording they were just standing there doing an improv and i started na the story and that was the first time i ever got a video to break a million views so that's when i realized i didn't even know it was called live extra fill at that time because i didn't go to film school i never aspire to be a filmmaker i was just trying to put out positive inspirational messages is to help people but you know i'm very grateful that that format caught on well i think one of the things that's interesting is that you started out doing a lot of kind of like production kind of incremental things and it was really like emotion and storytelling that broke you through more than like better camera or b roll and and i imagine you those things mattered once you fail the right storytelling vehicle like those things probably helped you increment to better and better performance but i find but a lot of people who aren't successful in the path that you went down they just get caught in the loop of like i'm just gonna try to make things look better or sound better versus like oh i actually need the audience to feel something very differently like is that what you discovered throughout that whole process yeah absolutely people you're right and can't they get hung up on the quality of videos and all the what versus the wise and you know for me a lot of people think that i live in our analytics dashboard and i'm looking at all the data i'm sure there's a lot of marketers that they obsessed about that but i would say the best retention that you can have is emotional connection if your audience is connected to what you saying they're going to stick around and that has been our secret for success in day one kinda goes back to how i see it that we are not just building an audience we're building a community our community actually takes action when they watch our videos they wanna share our videos they like they subscribe they engage so like when we work with brands we take that same type of psychology we're not just trying to read ad formats in the middle of videos we look at it is how do we actually create some sort of emotional connection between the brand and the audience that they're trying to serve so one great example is when we have the opportunity to be the creator of the week through youtube nfl partnership when i spoke with ten ellis from the nfl and he's like ga what is it that you wanna do first off i was like wow you're actually asking me or not i was shocked because he's listen that's key because there's never any collaboration directly between brands and creators it usually happens between you know if a cmo makes it directive that we need to get into and working with creators that goes down to their sm sv that goes down to you know the ten other people within the company right before then he goes to a brand agency then a creator agency then a creators manager then a creators create a director by the time it get to the actual creator it's how gone go go through seventeen different layers and now it's all really down to these four corner ad brief that really kill creativity but when we have the opportunity to work with the nfl tim was like da what do you wanna do and i knew was important to me that the nfl was trying to show more heart behind the sport right they were having this helmet off strategy so we get to know the players on more of a human level tim said that hey i want the audience to know that the players on the field are humans the coaches are humans the audience members are humans how do we focus on that and so my whole idea was what if the nfl appointed a chief kindness officer and then we went out and started doing all these kind acts associated with football leading up to the actual super bowl in my mind i'm like there's no way two weeks before the super bowl that the cmo of the nfl is gonna prove such an idea maybe if we're talking about twenty twenty nine right like this have so much bureaucracy so much red tape but tim you know i'll give him so much credit he saw the opportunity and then as soon as he realized like the emotional connection behind it he said yes and that turned out to be the most successful creator activation that the nfl has ever done by their own words so our campaign generated just to give you an idea of like the type of content so we take like a high school football team in an under privilege area who didn't have a school locker room and we built them an entire school locker room and we gave them brand new football gear we recorded all of this so that video alone you know probably got about twenty million views then i found out about this boy who had lost his father the father had to promised the boy that i'm gonna take you to a super bowl game never got the chance to so instead we surprised the mom with two super bowl tickets so she could carry out the promised that the father had made to the boy and if you saw that video just bring you to tears because you could imagine how emotional of an experience writing you're crying i just got blurry all of the sudden exactly so you know between all those campaigns we had over a hundred million views over a billion impressions when combining earned media and such but more importantly we had a ninety four percent positive sentiment from watching our videos whereas the nfl historically has been around the sixty five percent range and our video has got a ten point four brand lift through an independent study the highest brand lift through any super bowl commercial was five point two and that was the toyota ad so it was more than double the highest performing super bowl commercial and this was all based on organic views so you know that's to the credit of tim and you know my team that helped put all this together in a very quick amount of time but it just goes to show that if you can move hearts that's how you can move communities so you talk like a lot of what you're talking about is how you can build an an emotional connection to an audience and being a kinda youtube star or being a creator on youtube you're kind of having to think about your audience and you're also having to think about the algorithm and there are like shows on youtube that have done really well da of a ceo is a good example from steven bartlett where if you actually listen to what he's done he's just like really analytical about the algorithm like really trying to solve for every kind of component of the algorithm if you actually look at his show and how his show has evolved it's pretty much just structured around how the algorithm works and what triggers the algorithm how do you think about that balance yeah so so data to us is it amazing feedback loop we are an audience first company and so whereas traditional media players they have to create content hoping that they're gonna find an audience after their show comes out eighteen to twenty four months later for us we actually have a direct relationship where there are audience so we're creating content based on what our audience is asking for so we'll give you one example one of the things that we do is actually let our audience green light what videos that we create and so we do this through allowing them to join surveys where every single week they know that they can come to our survey page they get to choose titles of the videos they get choose themes of our videos they also get a shoes plot points like hey here's five different pitches which would you like see happen when we're deciding whether we wanna build a single video into an actual franchise we go to our audience first and ask them which one they prefer so we build with the audience from the start and because we own our distribution and data we're able to make decisions with them in mind throughout the whole process going back to when i started making content if i had promote i had approached things from a traditional standpoint i would have spent all of my money on my very first video it would've have flopped and i would've have been deep in debt and i never would have gotten off to the ground it took me over a hundred videos before one wet viral but our model works because we spend a fraction of what traditional media cost so when something didn't work i could iterate i could iterate i could keep trying and i think that's the reason that production is down thirty five percent last time i checked within an la film studios are vacant because the old model just isn't working and whereas the traditional model has to go from script to screen in eighteen to twenty four months sometimes multiple years if you look at a marvel project our turnaround time is twenty one days so from the time that we actually write a script to actually premier on our youtube channel there's only three weeks that has gone by and that's on our longest form of content our shortest production window is actually seven days from start to finish and so what does that mean we can get feedback from our community much faster than traditional players and we can iterate all along the way is there ever a time where because i imagine brands think about this when they wanna get into youtube where what the algorithm wants and what you wanna give your audience answering conflict and i'll give you like an example i watch you youtube for most of my content like same but especially for sports content and one of the problems with youtube is everything has to be so stream right and so every piece of analyst now is like this person is slam this person should be suck this person sucks there's no like in between anymore because the has to be opposite into the spectrum to like trigger the algorithm when you're a brand you're trying to figure out like how do i stand out within this noise and i suspect there's times where like what the algorithm wants it's not really where i wanna be you ever feel that tension between what the algorithm wants and what you want to create yeah there's constantly that tension and i think the difference is between someone that creates a company versus someone that actually builds a brand like if you think about disney they have brand equity they actually and for something that's a brand that people are eager to wanna take their children or their girlfriends or wives to to have some sort of special experience because of the emotions that that brand can connects so i'll give you a personal example i often will now try to incorporate ai into our various creative processes and so when i plug in what are our top one hundred performing videos over the past three years help me generate new titles based on that the title started going negative right more clickbait rage bait and so ai to recognizing that there is an audience interest in that and so yeah you know for me i totally understand that we could probably get more of views if we did certain things such as show a little bit more skin or have a little bit more controversial titles going into more steam romance but the moment that we did that there's gonna be some mom out there that happens to be walking by her child watching one of our videos that it's elise says you are not allowed to watch ga i had to sort of learn this by trial and error because even when we would show like cheat videos where somebody is cheating kinda going back to my original example i remember one of my staff members was like my daughter didn't know what cheating was until she saw one of the videos right so they have so then i have to start thinking about these types of things like what types of moral values do i actually wanna convey through our videos in our content i think the interesting part is there is so much negative content that exists in the world right and sure we're all within the media space realizing that that's the way to capture your eyeballs but the more important question is what do you want to be known for what do you want your brand to be associated with for a long time we didn't get brand deals because the brands that were looking to advertise with creators on youtube were not thinking about scripting right and they were thinking about spectacle because anytime you go to youtube if if you're a brand allocating a budget you'd say put the scripted budget within linear and then if we go to youtube i wanna work with a creator that is gonna be doing some sort of big exploding lamborghini or whatever it is right yep and i had my team come up to me my agency was like hey start if you start creating more spectacle based videos you can get a lot more brands interested in working with you so two years ago i had that i was at a really interesting crossroads i had to make a decision which rad was came go i at that time made the decision that we started this whole studio to put out positive content to put out heartfelt content to teeth positive life lessons i'm not gonna alienate our audience in our mission in search of views or in search of brand deals so we stayed true to our mission and up until last year all of our revenue and growth has come from platform revenue just because of how big our audience is and we never relied or even received brand partnerships but an interesting thing has happened in the past twelve months is that brands now are less interested in spectacle based content and they're more interested in emotional connection with audiences and so suddenly who is that player that stayed true to that mission it's us and so this year are like within the first quarter alone our brand partnerships were ten times the amount of the entire last year combined and so it's one of those things that if you stay true to your mission it might seem difficult in the beginning and you might be fore going some opportunities but that strategy will ultimately pay long term dividends don't go chasing in the algorithm stay true to whatever the ethos the mission of the storytelling you're trying to do and in that you like you need to solve for the algorithm the algorithm is a way to get discovered but if you just do solely with the algorithm once you're never gonna have a soul is kind of what you're saying and you're not gonna have any differentiation you're just gonna be in the sea of same with everyone else and i think what's interesting da here and i have a book coming out in the fall it's called loop out learn out market outgrow you can we'll drop a link in for people watching the video we have a whole chapter in there about creators and like one of the thesis there is you have a lot of brands out there doing advertising and most of that advertising is getting ignored right people are just like oh cool like i'm just gonna you know skip your pre roll i'm gonna do all of these things but the creators like yourself have all this deep resonance with their community right like they're not you're not doing these spectacle based things you're driven doing very emotional based storytelling so when a brand partners with you they don't just get like awareness they get the brand halo effect of working with you and what your brand represents what your storytelling represents and that to me is what creators are all about whether your a consumer business a b to b business doesn't matter it's that a creator is built this unique reputation with their audience and even like you deciding with a brand deciding to work with a brand you probably i imagine saying like hey does this brand represent the brand i have built myself and are they going to be complementary and you probably turned down a bunch of partnerships because they're probably not a fit for your audience like maybe tell us a little bit more about how you work with brands how you pick and decide what brands to work with because i think this is so new for so many marketers out there yeah really interesting question so you going back to what i said earlier i'm really grateful that we're were able to build the company without relying on brand deals and that was just by focusing on the audience first trust and owning our own distribution but you know as the landscape shifts we're seeing declining trust add fatigue and more content that's than ever and so brands in order to stand out in the sea of same as you mentioned they're looking for real engagement not just reach and that's where we operate our audience is emotionally invested and they're action oriented which drive stronger performance so you know and thinking about some of the brand activations that we did last year i mentioned the nfl and the chief kindness officer activation another activation that we did was when we were talking to adobe adobe said da one of our goals is to show that we are the official partner for creators and we want you to help us tell that story and i was like oh that's easy because all i have to do is tell the truth because what i was going you but i was going back to starting out back in my apartment i had six hundred dollars my bank account and i went to best buy i get the chills sometimes thinking about this i was looking at a box it was soft lights in a webcam that cost four hundred dollars it was like two thirds of my life savings at that time i bought that i couldn't afford like real camera gear so i had to learn how to fill them everything either in my webcam or my iphone and the third thing that i did was learn adobe premier and that's pretty much the same journey as every creator and so once i realized that hey you know what adobe has been in creators journeys from the very inception now how do we tell that story especially in this world of ai and disruption that adobe is filled there for creators today that's when i came up with the idea of creating an adobe creator training camp and my thought was i will get some og creators some of you know the the biggest creators on the planet i'm gonna assemble them together and i'm gonna have them teach other aspiring creators on how to create and not just by speaking on panels and giving lectures but by actually c creating with them so we had creators learning from creators on how to create and i see that you got a video so yeah check this out billion combined followers and i think that's what's so cool about today you get to learn from other creators adobe really makes the process of freight content so much easier especially now that you get on your phone actually just shot a video with adam it's such an readable experience to be in the same room with so many talented content creators i've never done anything like this to hear from other types of creators expands my inspiration and creativity we're able to create our own voice i taught myself how to edit who just collaborated with matt and rebecca and we're still looking for to working with them i've been using adobe for ten years and what i love the most about is i get to use all the tools under the same adobe umbrella our man is the goat adobe is the goat it makes sense why two goats would come to the other and i do think with our powers combined we pulled off something that nobody has one of the things i love about this is it's one of the ultimate marketing cheat codes you bring a lot of high influence people and let them work together right because the they get a lot of value they're inspired to talk about it they have like they wanna share each other's influence and like this is a great example like adobe was just a ben factor got the whole halo effect of this effort and if you're a marketer out there and you're looking to do something whether it's on a big scale like that's a pretty big scale having a big event having a bunch of people there or a much smaller one off scale you get that through that kinda shared influence and shared but you also said some magical things in their da where it's like you came up with the idea not the company it happened all the all of these brave partnerships seem like they happen quickly right weeks months not years and i i think that adobe example was was really interesting like what you learned from putting that all together you know what's was funny is as i was after i finish my talk doing the keynote at the adobe creators of it i get off stage and this lady comes me and she goes da i want you to look at this this was a brief to work with the creator that the company was signing and there was twenty four signatures required from the brand in order to sign him this contrast and she's like whatever activation we were trying to do with this creator for this cultural moment that was happening that cultural moment already passed so you know there's there's so much red tape and bureaucracy and like if you wanna work with creators you have to move at the speed of creators and creativity not at the speed that you know folks are traditionally used to like i have this acronym that i use and if you follow these five steps these are the five steps that i would say are critical to making it as a successful content creator and the acronym i use is heart h e a r t and so h is honor your story it goes back to even when i was saying i started off in my apartment not with the mission to actually start a company or build a brand i was just trying to help people that's my story and that's baked into my mission everyone listing to this has a story and that's what makes you unique second is e earn your audience is trust always remember why the audience is there in the first place and create content that makes them feel seen and heard third is a architect a system the goal isn't just to create one piece of viral content the goal has to be to create a whole ecosystem that allows for a lot of viral content what makes star man studios unique is that every single week we put out about five hours of content across eighty two different channels so don't just build a content build a company that creates content step four is r and that is reach hearts going back to that emotional connection you can build a large audience but in order to build a community that is actually gonna take action you have to have them emotionally connected to whatever you're creating that's gonna inspire them to share comment engage and ultimately purchase and five t is turned views into impact and that's always about just trying to find ways of giving back and making the world a better place because yeah it's great to make money but i think all of our mission here on this earth is to do something greater than that to give back and help people kip you mentioned you guys have got a book coming out i'm sure that's all about adding value to other aspiring marketers and companies in the world you're turning your views now into impact so if you follow that five step process h e a r t honor your story earn your audiences trust architect to system reach hearts and turn views in into impact you become a very successful content creator or a business owner what do you think are if you apply that to youtube because i think that's one of the predominant platforms people are migrating to with the disruption and search because of ai everyone wants to try to figure out youtube it's a our platinum platform to figure right if you have that framework what are the core beats to get right in a youtube video that really help you trigger both your audience and trigger the algorithm yeah so even when we go back to talking about packaging and we were talking about clickbait and negative titles i'm very cognizant of the world that we live in and so some of our even a lot of our videos they appear as if it's gonna be some sort of a negative storyline like for instance on mother's day we posted a story called son ditch stitches his mom on mother's day that appears to be you know like some sort of a negative story but in actuality if you watch the story it's about a kid who dishes his mom on mother's day learns about the importance and all the things that the mom does for him and then he decides to come back join her and surprises her on that special day so everybody still ends up so it's still a positive message with the positive moral but it could be in packaging that helps to bring in an audience so i would say you always have to start with packaging number one like if we have an amazing story but we can't figure out what the title and the thumbnail is gonna be then i say we don't have an amazing story so packaging is your first gatekeeper creators like to say that packaging is about eighty percent of the success of a video the reason that can be somewhat of a misleading statistic is because if that's eighty percent then what the actual content and the editing and the directing the shooting and the actors and every the story is like twenty percent that doesn't make sense so what i've come to realize is it's like you're trying to drive to the beach and there's different guard rails that you have to get through every single time and so eighty percent of that effort i would say is in that first guard rail which is the packaging if you don't get past the packaging you will never make it to guard rail two which is the actual pitch of the story so how we spend most of our time is thinking about what the packaging of that video is gonna be once you get through the packaging then you could start to put together what is the what is the pitch if i had to explain this video to you in thirty seconds how would i describe it and it's just like you know folks call an elevator pitch within business content you worked that same way you should be able to explain like kip you did an amazing job when we started out just saying what the audience is gonna gain from this video where with da we're gonna learn about creators how brands can work with creators how you could opt optimize your content how you can grow your following right like you're giving the value proposition upfront and then that also includes whatever your hook is because you want the opening of your video to match whatever the packaging is like if i was to share my screen and show you you know one of our our last video is called five ex boyfriends won't let their sister date and so when he open that video within twenty seconds you're gonna see the five ex boyfriends preventing the girls love interest from being able to date because if you're not getting that experience that you clicked on then people feel like they're gonna be bamboo and they're gonna swipe away so whatever the core idea of your packaging is try to deliver that in the first ten seconds if not definitely within the first thirty seconds and then from there you know it's what we know where traditional media i would say starts with inception rising action climax falling action resolution this is just a classic story structure within youtube it has to happen on a much a faster accelerated basis you almost have to start with the clock in hats you have very little time of rising action you have to get to the climax and then you have to keep building from there so you have to be able to tell that story much more concise and you know if you're wondering where you're starting to lose your audience interest or how you can improve your through rate of course you can just look at your retention graphs for each video and that will usually give you a sign as the areas that you're losing audience interest that's awesome that a master class like that that two minute clip is what anybody needs to to watch if you're if you're creating on youtube last one for me start what what's like one thing that has surprised you about your journey anywhere in youtube that works much better than you thought or is overblown and doesn't work anywhere near as much as you were told youtubers can't make it more than five years right like enjoy your five stack into fame kind of a thing you can't build a real business off of youtube and i think now with the way that creators have evolved into real businesses like we don't just have audiences we're not just talent we're running real vertically integrated media companies right we're not just distribution anymore we are actually creative we're production and we're strategy so what's amazing to me is how big of a platform that you could build by being a youtuber or having any sort of really engaged audience youtube is definitely the platform where you can have the most connected audience why because it's long form storytelling like how are you gonna be able to build a close audience when you're doing thirty second reels and you're just at the mercy of the algorithm with most of our viewers people are actually searching our man coming to our channel they're wanting to see our videos versus it just being suggested in their feed and because we've been able to build a real business you know now whereas before if you had ask me two years ago ninety five percent of our revenue was built off of just platform revenue that's adsense sense from youtube and facebook through the ads that that play in the commercial breaks between our content now we're such a diversified business that twenty percent of our revenue comes from youtube twenty percent of our revenue comes from facebook twenty percent of our revenue comes from an in house agency and then the rest gets spread out between fast our partnership with samsung where we reach over a hundred million households and we we're the first created to come to have a deal with samsung to do original content that actually comes out in june it's our series called unlikely romance with samsung second is vertical dramas now we've announced a partnership with fox where we're jv v to create forty films for their vertical drama platform called holy water third we are about to announce a landmark deal with another major studio in the sv fo linear space fourth we also are now going into audio with the launch of my podcast that comes out on may eighteenth and finally is brand partnerships which is becoming a more meaningful part of our business so look at just through a youtube business in community how much of a flywheel we were able to create to build other businesses on top of it so i'd say people probably still underestimate i know i did how big of an opportunity it is to create an audience that's really connected with your content and mission on youtube i think what's fascinating is you're showing people both creators who want to build a real business that you can anchor that on youtube and then really expand and that's kind of what you're you're saying and you got the podcast coming up you've got the new script to show with samsung but i think the same thing holds true for brands that if you're a brand you can go and place ads a bunch of different places but you're better off to work with really awesome creators like yourself because one you get your your creative ideas you get the audience affinity but as the creators who partner with grow and scale you also then have new platforms new channels to work with them on and it's not like you're limited to you know the amount of thirty second slots that are out there and so i i think you've given everyone a way to rethink how they can partner and how they can build their own own content and quite frankly it's just been really inspiring to hear your story starting out from literally like six hundred dollars in your bank account and now seems like every quarter you've got some awesome new project that's coming out you've been able like scale your impact in a really remarkable way congrats on your success star i really appreciate it and yeah i mean if i'm just for one takeaway for brands out there you know you don't just need influencers you need a whole creator infrastructure and creator ecosystems don't think of influencers as transactional relationships or one off deals where they're just gonna be doing ad and interrupting the content try to form direct relationships with creators and that real creativity comes from those conversations and the collaboration between brand and influencer rather than in ad brief i'm sure you're gonna be hitting out of these things in your book yeah we we cover a lot of that at the book but there's also like that was great party advice and to recap on the other device is like trust the creator understand that it's a whole different speed and process that has to happen like those three pieces of advice plus the framework i think are really valuable lessons for anybody out there who's trying to work and partnered with creators to create great content so da thanks so much for joining us on marketing against the grain we appreciate it you were up very early to make this happen for us so we appreciate you thank you so much thanks guys is real honor i wanna tell you about a podcast i love it's called nudge it's hosted by phil ag it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals and to the uk's fastest growing business podcast what i love about it is that the nudge listeners love no fluff no bs evidence based marketing tactics they get in each episode you're gonna wanna listen because this is like an nba worth of insight in every single podcast and entrepreneurs you're gonna love the show because it's filled with repeatable proven studies not hearsay say not one off success stories marketers you're gonna love it because it discusses the psychology behind great marketing and what marketers are getting wrong listen to the nudge where you get your podcast this data is wrong april freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrate well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot hubspot grow at him

today we're gonna to turn you into a data analyst that might sail onboarding but it's not ai makes analyzing understanding data possible in ways it's never before been achievable and why you have to watch this show is because i have an x google data scientists who has decades of data analysis and data science experience she is going to give you the cheat sheet she's gonna give you all the tips the tricks and the guidance to actually do this for your own company this is gonna be a game changer it's gonna unlock your career and unlock your growth let's get to today's show what we're gonna talk about today is agent analytics and how you actually use these ai tools to do really powerful and meaningful data analytics and today we're gonna go over codecs and so maybe before we actually get into the demo like give us a little bit of like why codecs what's your take on codecs for data analysis and give us the un var opinion so codecs and chad have come a long way like for those of you have been following chad launches couple of years ago chad launched something called chad operator they they really called a data analyst and i tried it out and it was horrible it was not good at all it was doing a very poor job so compared to that i would say like opening it has come a long way with respect to data analysis it is not perfect but the hard coding part like the with the data analysis specifically and crunching numbers i think that is where chad and codecs has come a long way for example the demo that i'm gonna show today is i basically have a csv file which i take and put it into codecs and i give it a problem that i want trying to solve a root cause analysis and you're gonna see that it does a fundamental job now does that mean i'm gonna take that at face value definitely no i'm gonna like do some validation on it i'm gonna make sure like whenever is spitting out is actually correct but before we go forward though codecs can seem like this scary thing to people yeah i i think we're all obligated to say that if you have a chat gp account then all you have to do is go download codecs and it's a very quick setup up on your computer and so it's not this big scary thing it's like a couple of minutes to get up and running right so like this like google or like watch some youtube videos there they're like awesome content online that takes you like from very big to like somewhat intermediate where you're comfortable to like just get started and open codecs and like put your analysis file and like run the analysis i did a great show with matt wolf where he built like a an ai second brain in codecs and we did some of codecs set up there so you can go check that out so this video is gonna assume that you have that part time right that that you got codecs and you cut that setup up and then if that's the case then we can kinda go to the data analysis use case and so i know that you were talking about that you're gonna walk us through a case where you have data in a csv and so take us from there so this is the work file that we're gonna be working with this is customer retention data basically we have visit id we have customer id their sign update and when they're visiting and we also have like their visit date like what week they visited what were their total number of visits are the new customer their returning customer basically it has like all customer retention data that you would expect in a customer retention dataset set retention this complex topic right because it's not just like binary like i was a customer was not a customer it's mh well i'm still a customer but i pay you less i'm still a customer but i pay you more i'm still a customer but i bought this other product or i'm not a customer of this one product but still retaining this other product it's a very like multifaceted complex topic which i think it makes it really good for the kinda of demo example you're walking through exactly like your best customer is your current customer exactly they have already sold them once they believe in your vision so like it's easy to give them another shot and like see what else they would purchase anyways so we're starting with this customer retention data but you the whole framework that we're gonna use today it's going to remain the same regardless of what deals that you're using and for just a little bit more basics i have created a custom retention folder under my documents folder so when we say work locally we're working with basically files on our desktop so what i did is in my documents i created a folder and i called it user retention codecs and this file that i just showed you is actually saved in that folder so now what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to codecs so codecs is basically think of like claude core but open version of claude cohort and claude code all in once i have both cha standalone alone apps as well as codecs so in codecs what i'm going to do is i have already created a project if you don't have a project created you can just easily create project using this drop down so for example right now you can say add new project and then you basically it will tell you like which folder and then you create that folder and then you will work within that folder so in this case i have already connected it to dis user retention folder that i just showed you in my documents folder and now here what i'm going to do is we're gonna imagine a scenario the scenario is your leadership is coming to you and it's basically twelve pm on a friday and they want to understand why user retention has dropped in the last week and what exactly is the would cause and they want an answer by two pm so like you literally have two hours to like figure out which would have been impossible right exactly and of course if you're gonna present it to leadership it has to be a deck like you can just go with like some two towards like summary like yes that could work but like if you really wanna impress like you wanna put a deck together i know we covered a lot today's show but we've got some free resources that are gonna help you take it to the next level you can scan that qr code you can click the link in the description below and get everything you need so what we're gonna do with code x today i'm gonna give it a prompt and i'm gonna say can you find what dropped retention dropped basically last month and i want you to build a cohort analysis and i want you to turn the top insights into a leadership tech so it's a very simple prompt now we can obviously like define it once it's like starts developing but this is like the basic prompt i'm starting with and the folder that i'm working with is user retention which has the csv file that i showed you earlier is saved now in terms of the model you have option to like pick whatever model you want to pick from chad gp currently i put it on intelligence like medium and we're using gp five point five and then all we're gonna do is hit enter and it's gonna start working what's interesting it's like this seems very simple but it's doing a lot of hard things you know you told it to make a cohort analysis it needs to be a deck which means it needs to graph that data in a way that's accurate and doesn't mis that data i think you're probably gonna talk us too about how you make sure the data is correct right because i think one of the big challenges with any data analysis is like i'm sure my data is right exactly so i think people have fear that the ai tools are not going to place data analyst or data scientist i think that's that's not true as somebody who has worked professionally in the domain for the last twelve years data analytics and data science a lot more than just like coding or doing analysis in excel it's a lot more about like stakeholder management applying the critical thinking and applying your analytical thinking because it's possible that ai is gonna give you something wrong and if you don't have the analytical thinking and the domain knowledge you're gonna get wrong answers and that's gonna hurt you career premier more than is gonna help and as somebody who's like a real expert in data analysis and data science like what are the couple of tips tricks principles that if somebody doesn't have your level of experience that they should just keep in their head when they're doing a project like this first of all you need to make sure like the data that you are uploading and the tool that you're using do you have the appropriate permissions from your company to be able to like upload that data into an ai tool so the rule that i follow yes there are so many ai tools out there but if you're using it for the data doing data analysis for your job for example at hubspot if you are doing like data analysis like some marketing funnel analysis what does hubspot has subscription to at enterprise level is it claude is it open if that's correct then use the internal tools that have like the enterprise security measures in there to use it for like data analysis so like that's number one that's like bare beer basics like don't take your company's data and upload somewhere else that's the big note so that's definitely measurement number one the second is when you're doing analysis with ai have a clear problem that you're trying to basically solve with it so unless you understand what you need to ask what type of questions you need to ask you're not gonna be able to like get a lot of value out of it so like fully understand what you're trying to get from this data analysis and what the output you want to look like for example for my analysis i want it to be a cohort level analysis mh and then i want it to be a leadership deck with explanation why exactly this retention basically dropped once you get the analysis once you get the output you need to like spend a little bit of time looking at the numbers start with like very simple like does the math anyone make sense because sometimes ai tends to like make with mistakes this is a great tip yeah simple math so if the revenue dropped by twelve percent but the customer retention dropped by thirty percent like that doesn't actually make sense and you can only make that judgment if you have like looked at that retention analysis in the past so your experience your background knowledge is going to help you quite a bit when you're working with ai to make judgment decisions and validate what ai is bidding it up for you right so those are i would say three fundamentals that you have to like keep in mind obviously like validate validate validate especially if you are just starting to use it eventually you'll build your trust with ai but it will take time and if this is something that i'm gonna put my name on i have to make sure like this is that's exactly the right you just gave everybody ten years worth of data analysis skills and and in like seventy seconds it was it was pretty impressive those are like everything you need to know to to basically go from nothing to being competent at something like this which is awesome okay so we kicked it off and it's been working for the last five minutes and what it's starting doing is first thing it did it's looked at the data it walks me step by step what exactly is doing and right now what it's doing is basically creating project files in the folder that we have given it and then it's looking for like appropriate libraries that it's gonna use for analysis it's looking for like permissions so you may have to like babysit it a little bit to give it the right permissions on claude you will get like do you give it access and you have like you manually like allow allow allow allow allow right like the two biggest challenges with whether it's codecs or cloud code or whatever there's lots of them but a few of them are allow allow allow and provisioning as well as just like managing everything locally and versus like the cloud and sometimes you need stuff in the cloud to share it and you spend a lot of time manipulating files around different places right yeah exactly so in the last six minutes it has primarily still looking at the right permissions and tools and libraries that it need but we can jump to like a pre built analysis that i've done and came analysis and i can walk you through in more is the magic of like cooking shows on tv right it's like you're showing us what it's doing and now you're gonna show us the kind of the end result that it was pre run but that's an important thing for everybody understand exactly is what you're showing is not like a sixty second project you this is i assume probably takes thirty minutes to like fully run yeah so like we can see like the last one that i ran it took about nine minutes so it went through everything asked me bunch of permissions and then it looked at the data in more detail for example it says i'm going to inspect the sc and data coverage next and why last month happened and then it found that the dataset set basically it's still giving me description of the data so it's saying data runs from march second through may third twenty twenty six with the latest week starting april twenty seventh flagged as the dip period so it's basically telling me more specifics in terms of like the problem that i gave it so and then it says that attention did fall by sixty six percent in the prior week to forty one percent in the latest week so basically it did identify that that attention did drop quite a bit now if you wanna do like validation this is where you would like quickly look at the data and like do some pivot then validate this number and see like if this seems correct okay if this seems correct let's keep moving forward and then it said like it's looking at couple of things and based on whether seeing it seems like mobile crash exposure jumps to forty five percent while email campaign exposure collapses to one point five percent so it's kind of like hinting toward mobile but like it's gonna keep going and then eventually after this finishes the analysis it actually does find that the pattern is now pretty clear customer weekly level retention drops from seventy two percent to forty six percent which is a drastic drop and it's related to new mobile version launch so that's our root cause so now the question that leadership was that being why did last week drop it's possible that the product and inch team launch a new version of the mobile app and there was a bug and that led to a lot of crash outs in customers basically not retaining even though they were coming back on the site they were not able to like continue on the site because their session ended now it's not done yet there is more so because we asked it for a cohort analysis and we asked it for a powerpoint you have the robust data set here and that's really important and it's possible if you're watching this you might be doing something similar and one of the things that could come back with is like i need more data right because you you fortunately have a lot so it can actually get a statistically significant conclusion from here but it's very possible that if you're out there doing this it's gonna ask you for more data so i think you wanna start i think with a pretty good size of data more data than you think you need is that like a good thing that everybody should consider or how do you think about how much data to start a project like this with yeah i would say this is again like where your judgment would come in because ai is gonna just assume that it has limited space to work with like this is the only dataset it needs to work with so it's gonna make conclusions based on whatever dataset you give it you give it like the missing data it's gonna make conclusion based off that too so that's where like you need to figure out what exact data you need to be able to do the analysis this is like one of the mistakes that ai makes it's just assumes that doesn't have the option to get additional dataset set from you at least today one of the things like data analyst data scientists or anybody working with data struggles with is figuring out where the data lives and a month ago when i was working at google i was actually able to use ai just to describe this is the data that i'm still for this is the sql script that i want to write and pull the data it would automatically figure out which tables the data lives in it will automatically write the sequel and finding the dataset set is one of the hardest challenge when you work at a bigger company where there's so much data and it's like spread out everywhere but even there's like a ai layer that is like all the rag which is like your company's internal database information embedded and you can quickly find where the data lives so to your question as an analyst you have to figure out what data is the right data for this you know that feeling when the strategy is done the brief is written everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all that content that someone is you and it's due tomorrow breeze assistant from hubspot can help it works right inside hubspot drafting campaign copy blog post emails all in your voice all ground in your actual customer data so you don't have to create content you create content that converts check out hubspot dot com to learn more well and i think what's fascinating about the show today is that it's like the ultimate example of like hey ai is really good and it's really helpful but it is light years away from replacing human set and that's like everything you've talked about is you've talked about a step of like human intelligence experience and discretion and judgment needed at like literally every step of the process right i do think there are some people who do kinda set it and forget a ai and the ai is just gonna figure it out and i'm not going to worry too much about it and i think that's fundamentally a bad thing to do but especially bad thing to do when it comes to data analysis because there's so many gotcha there can be hallucinations there can be mis and if it doesn't make sense to you as a human it's probably wrong exactly yeah i think forbes wrote a article couple of years ago when chad operator came out and they basically made a very bold statement saying like data ai is going to replace data analyst with like operator and i think that scared a lot of people and i would say if you are a practitioner who has done data analysis regardless of what your role is you know that data analysis as way more than just crunching numbers the way i treated it is like let's say if i have intern who is working for me and i know what problem i need to solve i'll just give the crunching part and the coding part to my intern and yes in turn will come back with something but i need to like sit down with an internal and figure out what exactly makes sense what does it make sense what we need to devi and what we can just present us is yeah i have this whole theory that no matter what your job is there's like a magical creative component that the people who are great at that role have like i think the great creative designers editors like they know when to call something done versus like to keep tweaking right they know this magic moment of when the art is done i think for data analysis for example there's just like the best people data analysis i've ever met they're like the most creative question ask right they don't ask the obvious questions they ask these counterintuitive unique questions of the same information and get remarkably different outcomes than anybody else who maybe just be a novice at that thing right did you see that oh a lot i don't know if it's like internal inside joke or something like that a lot of the times when like data scientists or data analysts have like stakeholders come to them they will ask a question but when you like dig in a little bit deeper it turns out like the problem that they're trying to solve is completely different yeah send them that they came to us with so you definitely have to like figure out what the right problem to solve is a a problem and really creative questions around that problem exactly exactly you nailed it okay that that's awesome i think what's fun is that we're building this analysis and kind of going through the skills and human aspects necessary to do that and so you've obviously run this you've found you know in this sample dataset kind of the core issues but one of the things you talked about is like if if people remember a few minutes ago i was like we need to present this executive team we gotta get a deck we gotta visualize that so it show that component of all this yeah okay so the the fun part which i honestly because personally i i can write documents all day tell me to write a six page document i will write it for you but if you estimate when call me to create a deck like i don't know like i am so lost so one thing i personally love that i can actually now create decks like take it from a csv file to like actually create decks with ai now i will like put a disclaimer codex doesn't create the previous decks i would say like claude and gemini i do better add deck then or x i completely agree but hey it's a deck so we can work with it so after i did that analysis it basically like found like the main drivers are the mobile app crashes and then it basically gave me two deliverables one is the cohort analysis that i asked it to give me and then the second is the leadership deck and you can actually see on the right side of the pain this is the cohort analysis that it did and we'll look at it in a little bit more detail and then this is the deck that it created for me that i can present leadership and then it also like gives you like coding files that it has created but let's actually go back to the folder where it has saved all the files so when we go to our documents folder now we can see like that it has created like bunch of folders and bunch of like basically here we'll see like it has created bunch of csv files for the cohort analysis and then for like deck it has also created like bunch of photos and screenshots and in the retention deliverables is the two files that i was showing you one is the excel file with that retention drop cohort analysis and the second one is the leadership deck so let's actually look at the cohort analysis file and see what it did for us okay so this is our source data that we gave it and it gave me a bunch of tabs that you can see here so first tab is executive summary so it gave me top leadership takeaways that you can see here the number one takeaway is that the drop is considered on april twenty seventh week customer retention fell from seventy two to forty six and then the second takeaway is like it's related to the mobile version launch and third is something related to email campaign now it has given me like the main metrics that the core metrics that it analyzed and what it found but it also went deeper into like the analysis where it gave me like weekly retention trend so here customer week retention is the primary kpi and this is the week that they started and how the active customer number has changed so if you look at the weekly data so like active customer in march second week is eight thirty one and then we keep going down you can clearly see that the active customer number is five hundred eighty eight and then the retained customer drops significantly and we also have our crash customer so you can see like there's a fifty two point six percent crash and so on and then it also spit out a plot for us where it tells us like a retention drop as we have increase in exposure so cd two is our crash percentage and see the series one which is this blue line it's our customer retention so you can clearly see that they both our related event and one calls the other anyway so here again like you will do the validation and you will like go through the numbers try to see like if it makes sense because otherwise like you can just present it as is you have to like do some math on your own to figure out like this actually makes sense or not this is my favorite analysis that it created so it basically shows this the cohort analysis where this column column a is the sign up month is tells me what month customer signed up in and like how their retention has been in and then you can see like april twenty seventh is definitely your retention is off for pretty much regardless of who signed up with the interesting thing about this is you're kinda walking through the the actual excel docs it's created so one go has built excel docs for you and you can now go and view them which is very valuable and two i think you're giving people a real good insight into what data analysis is really about which is like you're trying to find outliers and and you know in each of these different excel tabs that you're looking at it's like very clear it's like oh something happened here and you're trying to pinpoint when here is and then what happened around that period of time to actually understand that you need to do something about it and and normally when you have a big performance change in a whether it be a marketing team or your business it's because you did something yeah or because something happened to you that somebody else did and you're trying to pinpoint what that is so that you can remedy that problem and these are the types of excel sheets that you need to look at and if you're earlier in your career you may not know what things like cohort analysis means or you're not super data one ask the l and l will explain it to you and if you wanna work on your understanding you can also just ask the l to create a dummy set of data and say hey i'm trying to learn how to better analyze these types of problems can you create dummy data and we'll walk me through and help me figure that out and you can learn that in real time and you can actually close a lot of the gap to to expert knowledge like somebody like you has but i think this is visualizing them in the spreadsheets a very helpful way versus just seeing like the couple lines summary in codecs yep exactly and then maybe you can like look at the spreadsheet and come up with like new hypothesis for example what exactly happened in april twentieth week why is our retention so high so like i would say like that's another analysis opportunity that you can like take back to your team and see like can we investigate what we did in april twentieth and can we repeat it more often so is possible that this may be related to another launch or something like that that drove customers back to the site so the second deliverable that we had is our deck which is basically what we want to present a leadership so as you can see like it put together how many seven slides and in slides basically is what we will take to the leadership and tell it like yes the retention fell because mobile four point three version and these are the next steps we're taking to basically solve this problem but for your two pm remember the earlier i said like we're working on a scenario where your vp or your director is like can you explain why your retention dropped now you're gonna be able to like take this and not only share what you found but also have a presentation if they want to like get on a call with you and here you can explain that this is why customer touch a dropped and it is related to the mobile launch that we did april twenty seventh week and then these are like the three things that we have done like this to resolve things back to normal always go with what you're gonna do about it don't just go with like the problem and the root cause always tell the leadership what exactly you're doing about it because that's gonna be their next question and you wanna be ahead of it this is just my pro tip that is a good pro tip anticipate the questions and then have the already or prepared them in your deck so if we look at this deck like as i said earlier like codex doesn't do a great job with decks like they don't look the prettiest but for somebody like me who doesn't enjoy x i will take this and maybe like modify something things like look through like the data points that is spitting out see if i wanna add something or doesn't wanna add something then i will like modify it and here you can see like there are some mistakes that it has made here so i'll definitely like go through it and fix it but as like a baseline working deck that i can like take over and change i think for that it's already did great job basically giving me something to start with yeah and it's a great starting point it's really easy to make slides look better especially with some of the other models claude and and jim and i are great and i like your point of like getting ahead of the objections and you know even that's like a prompt modification of like may in the deck make sure you're including slides that would address any possible questions or objections you know the leader if the company would have would it would be a great way of doing this right okay as we're about to close out yeah you have given us a masterclass class and how to think about data how to analyze data how to solve problems with data is there anything else that people really need to know to make sure that they get this right because i want anybody watching this to say i can go do this and feel really confident about it gal i say like one thing that we briefly touched on but we didn't fully discuss is when you have your data like there is no such thing yes we talk about like some data is missing and we only have subset of data but we didn't talk about like the data that you have what is like how dirty or in cleanup up it be so if you look at the codecs like it started it just assume the data is already clean and there's like nothing needs to be done so here if i were to like redo it all over again i will definitely ask it to like look at what are like missing values what data needs to be cleaned and obviously like you're gonna look at the data yourself to but definitely follow that step because if your data has missing values or if it's incorrect then your the answer is that you're gonna get is incorrect anybody who's like creating data analysis with the ai just working on the the assumption that the data is perfect which in real world scenario it's never really perfect so like that's up to you to figure out how to get that clean data from where and if there is missing data like use ai to kind of like clean that up and and normalize it before you do the analysis now i would say that what i show today it's not prominent today at all organizations there are certain organization interpret enterprise companies that have adopted ai for example when i was at google like we were heavily into using gemini for data analysis i know meta is specifically pushing the pms and basically everybody to become takeover over data analysis at one of the skill set and use agent analytics tool that they have adopted to like ask good questions and get an answer i would say like five to ten years from now we're gonna see more and more of this where this is going to become like a core skill set for anyone who wants to do data analysis and or whoever touches data so so if you're learning this today and like practicing this you could not only be like doing your work in a more productive way but you could also teach other people in your team and in your organization how they can stay ahead of this and be the leader so right now everybody's looking for people who like use ai to like do your day to day job so like if you are that person you could be that person at your company who is teaching other people how to do it yeah kind of your closing call action is that this agent data analysis is going to be a huge growth trajectory of career over the next few years and if you're looking to kinda build your career or build the quality of company that you're trying to doubt there build you need this as a skill set and it's gonna differentiate you out in the market because gong are the days of very traditional data analysis you still need those fundamental skills but the work needs to get done in this new and modern way yes and for all my data analysts and data scientists and data engineers watching your jobs are saved they're not going away yet right the stage how we do things but correct you're not getting to replace you might be doing more and doing that in different ways and and then there there's an evolution of those jobs but i think if one of my big takeaways is the human element of data analysis is more important than ever not less important and that is a huge takeaway for everybody you've given us a masterclass class on how to actually get started and learn and basically get tough questions answered in a new and better way thank you so much on for joining us we really appreciate you we'll see everybody next time on marketing against the screen wanna tell you about a podcast i love it's called nudge it's hosted by phil ag it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals and to the uk's fastest growing business podcast what i love about it is that the nudge listeners love no fluff no bs evidence based marketing tactics they get in each episode you're gonna wanna listen because this is like an nba worth of insight in every single podcast and entrepreneurs you're gonna love the show because filled with repeatable proven studies not hearsay say not one off success stories marketers you're gonna love it because it discusses the psychology behind great marketing and what marketers are getting wrong listen to the nudge wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hotspot spot grow at him

we have something exciting mir mu who was the former cto of open started this new company thinking machine ready and they just had their big first announcement and it's all about voice say absolutely i'm ready what's up here's a live demo from thinking machines yeah so we're giving an announcement today and i've got two of my friends coming to health every time one of them enters the frame i need you to say friend got it i'll say friend whenever one of them walks in so this is having the ai use video and voice in real time to take some action yeah you can stream input into it in real time and it can respond to you even while you're speaking to it simultaneously how does that sound sounds like a solid app full duplex with real time our interaction is super useful friend hey everyone alright so you see the model using the video it knew that the guy walked in followed the set of instructions friends so you could imagine doing the same thing was saying hey when somebody calls with this question respond in this way you could see that voice can become a much more proactive and live integrated and so the big trend and what mir and thinking machines team have done is introduced a concept that real time voice is going to be one of the next big frontiers in ai but to make it interesting i'll do it in hindi can you translate in into in english in real time for my friend and for audience absolutely i'll translate as you go preview today we're taking a look at our preview model release it this is gonna be really transformative for how people works the multilingual side of this is super fascinating to get hindi to english in real time from a translation perspective fascinating and then again it's gonna say friend like it just did because you had a second person walk in and so it's showing you the power of the model to be able to interact in real time with this context from the video this is gonna be a next huge shift in ai we're going from this chat bot to real time audio that can actually interject in real time translate in real time assess what's happening in video real time it's gonna unlock the ability to have brand new experiences and to solve problems in new and different ways the hottest trend in ai right now isn't in video it isn't an agents it's voice and that's because they've been too huge foundational technology breakthroughs they're gonna shape the way you your business your brand show up through ai through voice and your brand is about to get a literal voice online and that is going to be really powerful the first big thing that's happened is that open ai just a few days ago released a new update it's called gp real time two voice and what's gonna be much better than me explaining this is to show you a quick video of how this works open ai just pushed voice ai into a completely different level and the biggest change is not only that the ai sounds better the real change is how naturally it can now hold conversations is let me pull the latest context and update your crm sa crest launched warehouse automation this morning earlier voice assistants often felt slow and awkward so the big change here the big gap that's been in place with ai voice it's been that there's been a lot of latency in terms of going back and forth and doing voice in real time which is the big unlock right think of all of the use cases call centers how you interact with technology websites etcetera look this is one of those topics where the more you dig again there's more to work with so we put together a free resource that get you all the specifics and covers a lot what we didn't get into or have time to cover here you can click the link in the description where scan the qr code take the full resources of how to adopt voice ai for your company open has made really big strides here and the interesting thing about this we had a big announcement from a company called thinking machines thinking machines was founded by the former chief technology officer of open thinking machines have gone after and solved that big problem i was just talking about the problem of latency yes open ai has solved a lot of it but thinking machines seems to be out of the gate even better at that latency problem let's take a quick look i heard mountain biking as a lot of fun so i wanted to go mountain bike and i was thinking to actually take my parents with me they're pretty old they're seventy almost eighty but i thought that would be a fun trip together wait no don't take the mountain biking at eighty that's incredibly risky they could easily get seriously hurt pick something safer i think i love that he tried to take his spirits mountain biking on the normal mountain bike we can do like tandem bikes might they more sturdy and we can find like you know some volcano or better like an active volcano stop and active volcano is deadly okay he's he's trying to be hyper obamacare taking his seventy eight year old parents mountain biking or taking them to an active volcano that's not the point what the point is is that the latency the speed of these models to react in real time has gotten so that the model could interrupt him and in the flow of normal speech as a human would go in interject it's hey that's a really bad idea what they're actually trying to demonstrate is that voice ai is crossing a chasm from this like very reactive dictation mode type of technology to very proactive technology that can be your partner can interject can make you better just as if you were like having a a chat based conversation and this is especially valuable and maybe somebody interacting with you on your website from a marketing perspective somebody needs a customer support ticket those types of things are going to be really transformed by this type of technology and so making machines starting and voice ai i think and this being their first big announcement is pretty wild it's a real signal that there's gonna be more and more competition and more competition gonna lead to more innovation for these fundamental technologies around voice you're like cool these two big startups ups that have released this real time ai technology what does this actually mean for me what does it actually mean for my business and there's a couple of things here right you solve these big announcements which is great but how it handles the pause how it starts becoming part of the kind of normal way of working shows that it can actually become part of society and the that starts getting integrated into just how we work becomes a marketing opportunity becomes something that marketers have to think about i've have to decide hey am i going to participate am i gonna be a part of this and i'm bringing this up at a time when ai feels completely overwhelming right there's is new ai stuff all the time and i'm not here to tell you that oh real time voice like that's so cool and this is the new thing what i'm saying is that this trend is just getting started and what i'm doing is predicting that over the next couple of years you're going to see a mass increase in ai voice across all the ways you and your customers interact and those become marketing opportunities so if you're thinking out there you're a founder you're a marketer and you're like how do i actually need to think about this trend in capitalizing on this trend there's a few things i'd recommend you do would not do the first is you now have an actual brand voice like your actual brand has a tone and we've talked about pass shows that brands are starting to create custom avatars ai actors for their videos you're going to need a custom voice that represents your brand and there's great tools to do that you can do that in eleven labs and several other models maybe in a future show you can leave a comment if you want us to show you how to create a custom brand voice we can do that but this is one thing that you're gonna have to consider and this is a really good example of the trap that comes up here technology like this which is like voice apis in real time seems do it seems like something you would have your it person go and deal with if you have your it person whether you're a cio at a big company or you just have like an outsource it person a smaller company you're going to miss a lot of the marketing and growth benefits of this type of technology the first thing like i said is you're not gonna actually be able to communicate what your brand is through this voice and there's going to be a lot of aspects is your brand warm is it friendly that what accent does it have all of these things that within a few words you can communicate to somebody just through what that voice is in a way that like sometimes you only get a few words nowadays attention is so scarce so you do not want to miss the opportunity and so the number one thing here is you have to start thinking of voice as a channel and a modality and i think that's very different i think when it comes to ai most people i talk to are ai is text and ai is chatting a text spot or if for if you're little advanced building an agent when buyer ask ai for a solution like yours does your business come up most companies have no idea and by the time they find out they already lost the deal to someone who did hubspot au helps you show up in those moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first form fill that's the moment hubspot is built for head to hubspot dot com slash au o to try that tool for free today what we're saying now is that chat is moving to voice and voice is going to become a channel that customers expect to interact with me and perspective customer expected interact me one the second is because it's a channel i have to care about how my brand shows up in that channel and i have to know what my tone is what my actual custom voice is and show up in the way that i'm looking to make happen then there's also just basic instructions that you're going to need to give these voice bots just like you might do at claude or chat gp where you're writing system prompts or custom sets of instructions and we've done experiments at hubspot people will talk to these voice agents for like five ten fifteen minutes and in those times you don't want that discussion to go widely off the rails and so you need to keep that voice agent trained and focused on the task hips so custom instructions are gonna be a big part as you start to test and rollout out technology like this the biggest thing here is you want people to understand that this is an ai interaction but you wanted to sail natural and human you know the technology is still developing this is why i this is not like you have to go do this all what i'm telling you immediately it's says wow this is a big step forward in a technology and i think it's gonna keep improving at a very exponential rate over the course of the next year and what i'm trying to help you with is it's not wake up it's say oh gosh i'm way behind and i have to do all this voice stuff it is to stay on the trend and start building the foundation right the biggest thing here as you're building this isn't that you have to have like a human sounding voice the goal is to be about brand sounding like we're talking about earlier it has to represent your company your brand to just be a random voice agent of some random voice that's gonna to be okay but that's not going to be what the best companies do the best companies are gonna make sure that their brand and who they are their values come through in these new voice experiences so i wanna show you a third video in the show today and this is about an example from a company sesame ai which kinda hopefully brings this third point i'm making to life which is it's about how do you make this voice engaging representative of your brand not just human sounding but motive and connected it to the company you're building and the brand you're building so we're gonna get a quick demo here let's open it up let me see if if this will work this week's ai for humans we did a big chunk on it and one thing i'll say while alex is pulling this up is i oh yeah long day for you or just getting started i might can you give this a second i'm with gavin purse we're doing recording a podcast he was just making a point and then we're gonna we'd like to chat with you but gavin why don't you finish what you were saying and then we'll we'll pull my head back in sure so i i that's so the goal here is to have a voice experience that represents who your company is and what your brand is and for those first seconds or minutes that somebody might interact with you in voice to be representative of who you really are in the company you're trying to be well then what do you actually do call your company that's right does your company have a phone number first of all if it doesn't that's problem one and forget this show and go get yourself a phone number and a way to answer the phone but call your company and does it have this old school robotic answering does it sound like your company at all is it a pleasant experience at all if it's not this is job one fixing that basic interaction one of the things that i've learned over time is because phone systems data are not like as digital and is easily accessible in many cases as your website data and other sources of marketing and often gets ignored and buried so i would actually just go and just understand where the baseline is understand how many people call that number how do they get routed after they call that number and then can i go call that number myself and get an actual understanding of what that experience is for most companies all likely it's gonna be really bad i did this a few years ago and it was literal gold we had way more conversations coming in than we thought and we were not handling them the best way possible and so to continue to audit yourself and just know that there are new technology that could make these experiences way better but before you need to worry about the new technology how were you doing like what is actually happening alright so you're gonna get a baseline then like you have to start caring about it you know you have to then say great well what should the experience be what should this thing sound like how should that routing actually work if i was gonna use one of these technologies what is the strategy what are the rules to make it work and make it work for me and if you believe this is a trend and if you're watching this far in the video you probably do you need some accountability you need to make some progress so today i wanna close out with a couple of i think fun and interesting predictions to close up the show my first is within twelve months an unknown brand is gonna go viral for having a really awesome voice agent experience that's going to have fun personality answer questions in a remarkable way and they're gonna get millions of not tens of millions of dollars of media exposure for doing this in a cool industry way could be you the next is is there's going to be a category of voice first marketing and marketers that happen and these early pioneers and voice are going to actually have a different surface area a different way of working than a lot of the tech based marketers and there's gonna be big opportunity and if you're a marketer and you're looking to grow your career voice could be able to a focus and differentiate and accelerate your career and your progress much faster there's also there's always good there's always about my third prediction is that there's probably gonna be some wild lawsuit or scandal about a voice agent making a really bad mistake because these things keep happening and hallucinations and lack of clear instructions are still an issue for these models and what's happening in the world and so this is what's gonna also have a high risk of happening if voice is lift solely to the it team or technical team you want it to be a partnership between the technical team and the marketer to make sure that these experiences are both accurate and on brand so here's my takeaway it's not voice ai is here everybody knows that voice ai has been a bubbling trend for a while the takeaway is your brand about to have an actual voice a literal one customers are going to hear it more than they read your copy long term i think and if marketing isn't running it somebody else in your company is you're not gonna like how it sounds and if it's gonna be a big surface area for your customers what are you doing as a marketer or not being a part of that so go make the call to your own company get that on experience i'd love to hear if you have any wild stories post them in the comments below would love to hear what you learn in going through this experience but i think it's the first step to actually learn what you should do with this new and rise category of voice ai drop a comment with any future questions on voice hit like hit subscribe and we'll see it real soon on marketing against the grain i wanna tell you about a podcast i love it's called nudge it's hosted by phil ag it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals and to the uk's fastest growing business podcast what i love about it is that the nudge listeners love no fluff no bs evidence based marketing tactics they get in each episode you're gonna wanna listen because this is like an nba worth of insight in every single podcast and entrepreneurs you're gonna love the show because it's filled with repeatable proven studies not hearsay say not one off success stories marketers you're gonna love it because it discusses the psychology behind great marketing and what marketers are getting wrong listen to the nudge wherever you get your podcast this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of hubspot hubspot is a crm platform where everything is fully integrated well i can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a test from three days ago i totally missed hubspot grow