i remember at one point you're telling me in slack you're like these people just offered me two million bucks for this yeah i'm like holy shit you did it we started i guess my first million you just made your first two congrats like i can't believe this worked out you're like i'm not gonna sell though and i was like wow this guy's it's i was like that's an insane story i feel like i could rude to world i know i could be what i want to put at all in and like a days all on the road alright so i can't tell you how many times i hear this people will dm me every single day and they'll say hey i'm just calling my shot right now today i'm just i'm a small boy in three years from now i'm gonna be on m m i'm gonna be on my first million i'm gonna make my first million do at x y z yep every single day i get a message like that here's somebody who actually did it this is sean he was my in intern turn guy who's made millions of millions of dollars lost millions of dollars and had crazy journey in between you were the guy who i created this podcast with yeah you were the guy who the the cover hurt of our podcast he created it the know the dig intro song originally there original interest song he created you know i didn't even know how to record it audio at the time this guy did all of it you went from behind the scenes to now you're on the stage here in my house and we're gonna review this episode so i've made it you made it that's that that's the teaser alright let's tell the story alright what's up man yeah what's i so people don't know this so you are ish sean yeah i met i've known you since you're or eighteen years old you still are kinda like eighteen years old yeah i still look like you vote yeah you're twenty three now yep alright so i'm thinking this episode is kind of like your title wasn't intern but it's gonna be good for you youtube so we're gonna be like intern my intern became millionaire okay yeah i was and by my type of fish follows is cheaper stuff right i'm just like yeah i like intern and by the way i got a get track record with this i don't know if i'm doing anything but i've good at picking people because i worked with you at age eighteen yep steve bartlett nineteen maybe twenty yeah years old there's a guy another guy named sean who just tweeted out today that he's like those four months i worked with you we're super influential he went from like guy just working in some place and now he's got an eight figure agency so that was cool yeah danny miranda works me for a little bit people know him in the podcast game now he was with us for a couple months before you started creating contest so i i feel like those two sean's and maybe yeah getting getting people about like sam similar to your name yeah the closer the better actually alright so you've had a crazy run but let's do let's do the history so how do we meet well i followed you twitter when i was like twelve thirteen years old i was tweeting my whole strategy was let me get my like like perfect picture and you afford you that i'm re intro the the the one park which is yeah one thing that people don't know is this podcast was started actually not with me and sam me and you yeah i hit you up on twitter dms yes yeah and i saw that you were doing a you were podcast editor for somebody else i knew i think corey or dangerous or yeah yeah levy and so i i i had this idea alright i wanna do a podcast i hit you up i didn't know how old you but i was like hey do you wanna you wanna produce for me then we got on a call ago man this is like kid somewhere you at school at the time and i was like will you do you know how how audio works and you're were like yes i got you so the if people see the the cover art of the podcast yeah you made that the initial like you know twenty episodes or whatever all those intros and all the audio you made that yep then we started doing business experiments together this was at a time where i was kinda like i think i wanna build an audience yeah i also wanna just launch some businesses we launched e comm business we launched a bunch of shit together and then we all win off our own ways and then you had a crazy journey after that where you made millions of dollars lost millions of dollars and all the rest so we're gonna talk about all that let's start at the beginning so i dm you but we you were actually were on twitter when you said we were with what thirteen old thirteen ten years old i followed you i was trying to just get my face like on all these people in because i i'm from australia right those are the are silicon valley those there like vcs and cool angels and all these people so i was like let me this is my avenue to get to these people and then let me just like even if it wasn't like a lot of value add i'll let me just tweet random shit at you guys and right i was do it that so if you just go on my twitter you'll find tweets with me you know nice tweeting off to sean random shit and you a respond here and there but yes i was like what else yeah literally like thirteen fourteen and whatever and and then couple of years off later when with the podcast with corey is where yeah you dm me and i was like yeah i did know who you are let's do i think your name was i think i found you because your name was also shot i don't know my like this is this is it today but yeah so you talk about the start so when we were working together tell me some of the things you remember because i remember well i everyone's got their own version of history yeah i remember in my head like you know what we were thinking back but i'm curious and this is our first time catching up in person because live in australia when you're just in town so us and he used to live it where i lived i was living in brisbane you'd also like way back lived in brisbane yeah so what's your version of history what do you remember the first thing i remember well i think the first thing i remember is when we're doing the podcast i cover out and stuff i sent you have a some yeah like his version version be blah blah and then you're like hold on a second you should add your name to the to the camera yeah i thought i thought that was really cool i i gave like be a lot of confidence like oh okay yeah this says i'm like i'm you a part of this is as well i remember that was that was a cool thing you did because i think maybe that's some learning that with people at pay up yeah give awesome you can feel special yeah yeah you make a social special do that that was also like a really cool thing i remember also i'm just like the kind of craziness of like let's start a crystal store today and then like a few weeks later let's start this other d thing like make up make the store seventy two hours go off and and do it it was like it was it was like some various variations like an incubator but it's just like i guys i think this time i'm working at twitch i'm a handing out by deal we sold the twitch i'm now earning out and i know okay in a year i get this vest checked yep but in the meantime like frankly i was pretty bored inside of a big company you know it's not i knew that's not my long term and i was like you know on the side here what can i do to entertain myself the podcast was one cool thing i always wanted to do and then the other would be like i would meet somebody and i'm like oh this person's killing it in e comm yeah y sean i'm making get a eco com store and i remember for the crystals thing i was like i read some article yeah i saw some magazine like i was trying to look outside of like i don't look at tech crunch to get tech ideas i like business ideas i look i several remember reading like a people magazine and it was like adele was saying she won't go on stage unless she asked her like rose quartz crystal and i was like what like you that's insane like you who believes in this crap and i googled it and i was like after kim kardashian got mug she had like a four million dollar ring she got mug and it was like how did you recover she's like well my crystals really grounded me and i was like and then you see all these celebrities i'm like if again i just think people are sort of like i have this tweet that's like the economy is just smart people paying beautiful people to market too to to sort of like average people and i was like if all the celebrities are doing this and there's gotta be a bunch of other people that believe in this and so i remember calling you and you're were like the best part about you was your game that's my favorite thing is like if you hire somebody in no experience is a bunch of bad things like i'd be like dude like i had heard from you in two days where'd did you go yeah but then on the good side it'd be like it doesn't know any better so i could just be like hey we're doing this and it's gonna we're gonna launch it in two days and you're probably just like i don't know this is that normal maybe that's normal right like yeah because besides of like i never i've always been working for like into that people i have never had like additional go to toilet office and right and like i was i at the time i was like i'm like i'm going to finish uni should i go and be a consultant for like some bad whatever yeah you asked me back comes so i because yeah just didn't know what the other guess i was just scared because i didn't know what the other world was like i like alright this is kind of right normal and doing this so say crazy stuff like just yeah creating different eco com stores or different experiments we did like a newsletter the good terrible bad very bad the and then it out of your that one top five before right mill yeah yeah mill road became a successful newsletter company but i guess before that i didn't even remember that we do we do launch a newsletter called it the no good very bad terrible something something something newsletter yeah i don't know whether it was why we called it that but we basically were launching a bunch of experiments and i remember at the time one one of my takeaways from that is that crystal store for example i didn't even know what winning looked like so one problem with an experiment because easy need to use this word experiment but the way a science experiment works you have a hypothesis so you're like i believe this when you run the test and you either confirms it or doesn't yeah but i was using the word experiment wrong which was like i'm just gonna try a bunch of shit without actually knowing like what is the wind condition yeah what is the success or failure condition of this and so like now that i look now that i actually have an e commerce bit like our e commerce business out you know is is to a very well it's a eight figure e commerce business now that i know what an e comm is looks like i can go back and think about our our crystal store actually it was doing very well like i just didn't know so for example we were running facebook ads and the key metric for all e commerce businesses is is your ro as of return on ad spend and i think we were getting like one point seven yeah well like the ru wait i will all these ru oh like fifty sixty they're all docs they're crystals yeah so it's had yeah i like the first few hours we got that that shopify ding it's not amazing like that was i mean most people start up a store that then don't have sales for like a couple of days or whatever or weeks and so yeah it i think our was like just didn't continue we can say there exactly because it was now that i looked back it was like one point seven to two x yeah and i remember thinking oh it's supposed to be three or four x i think so i'd heard some yeah idiot saying that somewhere and i just thought that's what it is and so i was oh i guess this is bad turn like shut it down let's do the next thing you're in retrospect i you know make i'm glad and running a crystal store but at the same time like there is a lesson there of i mean sticking to it is obviously a like you can't win without the stick to it ness but one of the things that makes you stick to it is not just willpower it's like knowing your win condition so like you do you even know what to look at and do you know what winning looks like do you know what the benchmark should be so that you can actually assess a successful versus unsuccessful experiments that that's was one of my learning one of my things i remember from back then the other one i remember is like with the pod we kind of like we called our shot a little bit like we made this google doc yeah of the plan the one page plan and now i called that my kickoff dock but it was like before we started wrote this out do you remember that that doc yeah i remember and it was well the first thing that you helped him was like you need you a thousand true fans like that was the very very first thing you're like if we just got this you can build a pretty big business just with with a thousand people i was like the first thing i remember and then you had a few things like we need to get to a hundred thousand listeners and get a bunch of other other like maybe build a business of all like you know these ancillary businesses adjacent business across it and i mean you did know that i was funny that's want thing you kinda step back and it's like i'll share the doc i'll put the dog and if you're on youtube i'm gonna put it on the screen so you can see literally like word for word while be wrote back then and it's not that it it wasn't all right in that it all happened but it definitely didn't happen on the timeline i remember thinking that we're gonna hit let's get to a hundred thousand downloads per episode so that's the thing like per episode i want a hundred thousand downloads by the end of the year so it's like twelve months yeah took me three years so like you know now we do that but like you know it took three years for us to ever hit that mark so it's kind of this old phrase like don't confuse a clear view for a short distance it's like i feel we had a clear view i just thought things would happen faster i overestimate kinda like what could be done in one year but with that one because it's so fun i just kept going and like sure enough like you know all we we we've that was like the right thing to keep going there's a lot other things shiny things and that was like the right one the one that i was making no money actually costing me money because one of the things i wrote to that dock is i plan to lose ten thousand dollars a year doing that yeah yeah but it'll be worth it because i thought you know creates like some serendipity yeah and you kinda talked about that too like content creating serendipity or like just being online and being like in the mix yeah fortune liking a post or replying or something or putting putting yourself out the who cares of someone that's like when you i mean stuff for you know if you post this millions people gonna look at it but like just for like a regular person when you post like a tweet and it says like a hundred and sixteen impressions just gone to like that's all like that's still some people that have looked at it and you don't know who it is but you know later it down the line and that could that could come in ahead handy and when we talk about some some of the stuff i'm going now i can i've gotten all my opportunities every single one of them has been like through twitter or like through some like linkedin or some email or thing sent and late years later on track it's all come tell the story about the billionaire so what what happened there that's added on twitter yeah that was a that was me just like saying i need a i just made this like kick ass investment and let me like i want more people to know about it so i i was like talking to like journalists and stuff like that like hey right about the story and no one was really taking the time but there was one dude that was actually yeah on twitter yeah i just he wasn't responding to anything else i wanna twitter a i sorry active there i was just like i just kept liking his post i didn't actually say anything and then like he checked out my linkedin profile and sent ta he's like okay yeah let me write about the story right and it was like it wasn't like forbes or anything it was like a pretty small news site that it's it's so weird that they posted that article a few days later a billionaire to i read that article and then out that saturday and then what we'll tell that story sec so even that is like there's this praise that i read once i think mark sister they're blog by this called lines not dots basically the idea is like a line is just a collection of dots like right mathematically that's what a line is it's multiple dots all all connected and so what he says is like you know and he's like what people think happens is they see on tv you go in you meet this investor cold you blow their socks off with this pitch and then they write you this check and say you know here you go son go go on and it's like that's what happens like that's movies that shark tank that's not real and the real thing is dots and so he's like you know many interactions that stack up that when you look back later is a line and he's like investors invest in lines not dots meaning they're not just gonna like it's not the very first interaction typically where it's all just gonna happen for you and so it's following the person liking the post replying to something then they noticed that this person had something smart not the first time but the third time yep and then after that they follow you back and then because of that they see this other blog post you wrote you don't even realize that one of your ninety eight views yeah was this person who's actually legit and then go you know like and then so those are dots stack up and ultimately that's how trust gets to built that is framework this is the the framework king yeah this is watch me because maybe i do yeah so that's i think you what you've done really well so let's get to the part where we break up so at some point when we break up we were taylor for a while i got year i think it was like a couple of years of like knowing other like doing something yeah so we get to some point where you're like you come to me one day you're like i wanna a day trade or something i like it's to be fair you were actually kind of good at this i remember one time we're on a call and i was like telling you like some instructions or saw like some action items and then like there's like no feedback and i was like y are you listening like what are you doing what happened we're doing because this thing on hey you were like oh hang on bitcoin just crashed to thirty five hundred dollars like this will motherfuckers looking at the bitcoin pie we're supposed to be working on our very important crystal store or whatever we were doing it whatever you know scheme we were in at the time yeah and i've ever really like like two reactions one like annoyed like dude this guy's is like not pay attention two wait they clint crashed like shoot you know he's buying shit i buy and you're like because she told me you're like google crash i'm trying i'm trying to place an order real quick it was down like sixty percent on just that day and everyone everyone could like noticed that day was a area like like it doesn't get march or so he it was yeah yeah yeah it was and like it was like he just never see it happen is like this is not some old coin this is like v coin this is great this is bitcoin and so what that happened i was like i i've seen a few of these i just wasn't a part of it as i was like my sorry i know i should be working get listening right now i was like i need to act right now and so yeah i mean i grabbed all the money i had it was a couple of thousand dollars and i well i didn't just buy the client i was like the the degenerate me i was like okay let me try and maximize some so i went on people in a bit back i went leverage loan on bitcoin i took all my money did that and when i went like leveraged long means what here in this case so you so if you buy thousand dollars with the bitcoin and you buy you know twenty x leverage that means you actually buy twenty thousand dollars worth but if it if it goes down by even a little bit yeah you you'll you'll go wipe down you'll have you'll experience a think called liquidation right so getting liquidate is like your estimate map and i remember you were like what four five grand your i was like girl whole grand that was like collateral i was twenty x well twenty five x leverage and when i click the button to buy like everything went frozen and i was like i was saying oh shit it's just me or like i'm i'm kinda freaking out and i go on twitter that's why i was i was i was like not really talking i went on twitter and everyone else is like bit max just froze and i'm like okay it's not just me it's it's like the actual exchange and i was kinda freaking out because i thought alright it's gone i've i've already clicked by and ben maybe when you when you're were looking at todd if you look at the one minute chart it was just going death like it went down down out down and it just stopped yeah you you assume that when it like un freezes it would have just kept going down because who knows this was like a black swan right so we don't what's going on and so that's why i was like frozen for a while because i thought i i'm an idiot i just lost saw my money but when it un froze i saw i was up like forty thousand dollars i was i was i was like i was like my h was out yeah you ed yeah enough and i think you had a coinbase base you you'd be out when he told me i was like i was like come on man i was like but wait what what's the price that i went and i went bought twenty five k that day too yeah and so which is actually an amazing like we made more money than that we made more money in that one minute yeah then we did like you know six months of experiments together you know whatever you there three months of experiments that we were working out at the time and there is a lesson there which was like you the the best kind of like ideas don't all just come from your head like you know you're at the time at like in turn chief of staff but you were like this is a buy right now i'm gonna do this and by following you i kind of like got the benefit of that at the time and you know bitcoin wouldn't traded it up to like seventy grand or whatever since then and come back down to earth but my takeaway for full tedx from that day yeah my takeaway was there's like does a very few moments where you can make all the money versus like trying to make a little bit of money every single time i think like i am not a day trader i don't think i'd go back to being a day trader or whatever but i think all the money is made when there's like a few key decisions that happened maybe once a year or once every few years once every few months whatever it is and you just have to act on it with like like it's a bit general have to like there wasn't a lot of thoughtful planning around i'm going to buy bitcoin because of this mathematical equation that's full guy halo was just times like this doesn't happen every right at all the time say when what in the moment i was like this guy's a fucking did degenerate right like that's twenty i didn't even know exactly how an option trade worked i was this is crazy but at the same time you're right like if you go read that buffett quote where he's like you know there are moments or seasons where you know the the that's this the clouds fill the sky in the right and it's about to rain and and if he says in that moment let us not come out with spoons but bathtub to sort of like make hey there's also you know naval ball has a quote that's similar to this which is he's talking about luck is one of the versions of luck is being able to recognize an opportunity yeah so it's the it's the version of luck it's like he goes at level two whatever or he's not the inventor of this i i just heard it from him but you know the the original guy who wrote this he basically says you know it's sort of luck favors the prepared mind yeah so anybody could have seen that price and most people missy see something going down they get scared you were like this is bitcoin bitcoin flash crash blink decision that this is a good bet for me like whatever risk reward adjusted yeah and you know you were correct in that later i'm gonna tell a story so you come to the states we fly you out and i remember toyota restaurant and we invite my buddy sue week and we're talking and it's always like okay sean i'm like you know tell me like what what are you excited about yep and you go i i'm excited about this company called danny mo you had told me about this twenty three times at this point and you were like i love the stock annie mocha i like the stock it was like you were like the games stop guy right you're like like the stock and i was like andy mocha i've never heard of this it sounds like a yogurt and then i was like why do you like it and then you told me sound that i didn't really ask but i was like what does it do and you're like oh they're making these like mobile games or something like that okay whatever later when we're at this i was like hey sue built a mobile gaming company and sold it for whatever a hundred million bucks more tell him about that what's that mobile gaming company and you started telling them he's was like okay interesting so i heard it like four times from you never took action because again i was not at that of time listening and probably the way i should that's an investment you made millions dollars off of yeah tell the story of how after we stop working together you go from intern to multimillion millionaire in a very short like how long like yeah has very sir at so i've known about ana mock it was a australia the listed company so it i was on the stock market and initially bought like a few thousand dollars worth and it did well went up like four x something like that i was okay great that's yeah i've done i've done my done my thing here and i i was looking at it as an investment so i didn't sell it and then the australian stuff exchange they came after it and they're were like you guys are dealing this with crypto this stuff we're going to have deal with you well they were crypto initially they pivoted to yeah yeah so what about the time when i bought so i bought them initially because they had an announcement and they were like we're going to do a thing called crypto kitties and were gonna work with them and so i saw that as like this was before like a pre boring mobile company now it's like a sexy crypto yeah it's like a sexy crypto thing it's like how do you value a blockchain game like this is like think things that are like hot value is kinda what i like because that nobody knows what the prices right so like as a the genre i like that and so yes sir anyway it did well none of this episode is financial advice this is actually at fa yeah me just laughing at the messi of the story so so let's let's tell story so you you buy more so yeah i bought it it got deli listed and i'm my holy shit my money is gone how much you in at that point it it wasn't a lot it was like twenty five thousand thirty big big cave yeah but to you that was a lot that was yeah that was everything yeah you you put everything you have which is twenty five gram a time yes deli list off the stock you exchange because like change just like if you guys now do crypto we don't know we don't like crypto we don't know what crypto yeah now you're liquid stock you can't even sell yeah i can't sell it and so this was like tell me this i'm laughing at you i'm like yeah i i remember you told me this you're like dude i got fucked on anti mo and you're like it's deli listed i'm like wow i thought you probably just lose money because the stock goes down i didn't think you would lose money because you just can't sell it anymore yeah but you did something even crazy you doubled down on crazy so tell throughout that year i did a few things i went about like secondary markets that's something i didn't yeah i wasn't really exposed to before i learn about that i did a lot more research into like what they were doing and always been in the and i was the perfect person because i you know i had a microsoft server when where else i kid so in high school so i understood how if you turn these in game items into something that you could sell this is a win win for for everyone so there's that i was a gamer at house so when you when you at else in bitcoin wet way long before moving twenty sixteen so when you mix all of that together i was like the perfect person to see the why it's like okay what they're doing is actually something that i wanna get more exposed to and you know why buy a bunch of different tokens and companies but i can just buy the getting exposed to the people that i think will be the the overall winners here and so once i yeah it got had that conviction i was like hey well how how do i i can't market by the stock alright so i was like how do i actually buy this thing now and this was like a year it's been deal listed so in that time i was waiting for you and i another guy and i had a few other bets that did really off to pay was one of them that ended up being able you told me about that one too yeah hey we were talking about buy now pay later yep and i admit max electric from preferred yeah i was oh this this was a great start idea and you go oh we have actually after pay is better yeah and i was like bro you're a little australian versions version not you were like no look at these numbers it's better and that stock just went that went crazy from how you you told me like really early on that one so i yeah yeah so i did yeah so did really well with that i'll also have a pretty crazy story there where i followed one of like like i didn't have a lot of edge being like a kid from australia investing in a public stock so i followed you know all their c suite people on str to see where they're at and one of them was like near the square officers and they never like so that's where they ended up a acquiring so i got like the little digits there a brilliant square but that was was like a little hack you're like i don't have satellites to track cards but you you less legit you follow the guys yet and i thought he was at the square offices you're like they might get bought so a guy from off to pay the c oh was at he was in san francisco and he was like pretty close to what i was doing is right and i was like this there might be something i didn't know what was going to happen i'm like i feel like a partnership what happened but then you know square came in bought them for like thirty billion or whatever and you know the stuff you're know way crazy but anyway i made a bunch of stuff money from doing trades like that and working for you guys alright so how do buy animal owner buy more and you know the way i went to like facebook groups initially we told me you were like there's a facebook group of people just like comm again like w recovering stockholders were just there pitching and moaning like del disgruntled like they they're talking about at one point they here like a class action against ado whatever like all this stuff and so i was like okay this like at the time when they were listed they're worth like eighty million or a hundred million dollars i was like okay i could get a huge discount on that and so yeah i went to facebook i got a few people and they're like small trades i was like i need bigger how do i get like people that have a big money so i got the list of the top shareholders you can you request a publicly in australia might be the same here in the states but i got the top holders and i was let me go through each one of them which one of them is disgruntled and there was a few that i i still couldn't like really impressed one me to like name these people yeah i think one of them say public but they're like pretty big time people that i mean they're already raised money yeah yeah it's smart money they're already rich they had this because they invested in some funds that had some allocation blah so they were like just wanna to get rid it they're like it's deli listed they don't know they probably don't know that they were crypto or they're gaming it's just one of the things in their portfolio that's you know alright and so so you have buying it for like what discount like the eighty percent it was more like eighty ninety percent discount to what the last i remember when you told me i have the slack messages what you told me i'm buying it for you know ten cents on the dollar yep and i'm like bro you're just lighting money on fire like you're doing crazy like what's gonna like that's a insane reaction to the bad news bears that well i'm gonna like double down but it worked said didn't do i think like i like the way the drop down i at yeah i put everything i had is about a hundred k that i just like this this should work at well it's also like i'm if i lose all this money alright i'm in my twenties oh like and you told me i you go you're like i'm twenty years old yeah i'm just gonna i'll just like get a job but i'll save up again at oliver i'll just i've got this is the time to do every take all these crazy bets i don't have kids i don't have anyone that's heads on me so yes i made the bet i did all the transactions you that itself was like a bit of a crazy thing because they take some time to do to do product transfers in australia like the documentation for that the people at bell handling the transactions they were taking the long ass time so one of them actually the biggest transaction after animal you know announced the now worth a billion dollars that did raise i was like do i even have these shares because it'll still right they'll still take time to process this i'm was like i put the money in the escrow account like i obviously ended up getting the shares but yeah it was like the this whole new world of alright i couldn't like i wasn't like an angel investor before i didn't understand how to so i had to just like on a clone and did they didn't know you're like did these you guys know they're dealing with like a twenty year old counterpart party these products actually they're like they had no clue that they were yeah yeah that was yeah it was pretty flake like these are these are like pretty serious with legit guys that were i mean they thought they were you know shoveling dirt onto me and then right i'll they're probably laughing yeah yeah their perspective was let me give dirt to this person and i thought i was buying a gold mine and so i was like alright let me let me do this but i remember i and it a lot of this there's a lot of luck involved obviously and so when i boarded you know i thought this was like a very long term play like after five years there might be something here but it was only after about three months so i bought at the valuation bought that was like thirty forty million and a few months afterwards they raised it a billion dollars and i getting a call there was like this hong kong fund that reached out to me and because i i i had to like flex a little bit to people and i been live that you know i bought this company so you're up fifty x yeah i'm up yeah i was it was worth like i think two million dollars and i was like holy shit let me like let me like i i'm let me like have to think of what to do here because people want to buy it and yeah had a hong kong reach i was like we'll buy over it would you be two million dollars today you're one and twenty one years old or something this was actually right before they actually nav they're raising in a billion dollars some fund probably hurt they were gonna raise in a billion dollars then we're trying to get off me out of like at a discount so i was like i i think they the initial offer was like a million dollars pull like whatever and i am calling my dad i was like holy shit like this is worth a million dollars and upset like brown grandparents that you know this is a million dollars you took this but don't take the money like what are you doing take the money ride now and so but you said i was like just wait a few months maybe this will be more i was like i was like i i don't think that like this is it here and especially because i was tracking all the numbers especially n like volume like n energy volume sales and i've been tracking this every single month and for like it was like a flat line it's like someone was dead here and then in this month there's a little uptick so i'm like this these little uptick don't just like stop here there's there's some like praise that goes on here was like if this is worth a billion dollars now and this this the hype is just starting now let me like ride this way at the peak and mo was worth what at the peak they raised the latest of six billion six billion so yeah we're buying in effectively like a twenty thirty million dollar valuation yeah it runs up to six billion i remember at one point you're telling me in slack you're like these people just offered me two million bucks for this yeah i'm like holy shit you did it we started i guess my first million you just made your first two million congrats like i can't believe this worked out you're like i'm not gonna sell though and i was like wow this guy's it's i was like that's in didn't insane a story so you held it what's did at now who knows no no one knows i mean i was with us i met met yeah and i'm at the board it was a few weeks ago in sydney and the the real thing here is i i forgot who set up but bill like never count your winning unless it's like cash and bank it's realized and so i was like hey you have to exit this and the way to exit it to see i sell it privately league all these unicorns they're at massive discounts right now so it's like not do that i hate like you know i at its peak it's worth eight figures do i sell about for seven figures and and cash it him that's always like a decision that plays all i mind right otherwise yeah i have plans to listen into an ipo and well like you told me at the time because i was like dude this is say i was like hey man listen yeah as you're pseudo father figure here you should sell us and you were like i see what you're mean but you were like well i what do i need two million dollars for you were like i don't have something i'm gonna go do i'm not gonna change i don't wanna change my lifestyle like i like my lifestyle yep you were like i'm just gonna look to invest it somewhere else and if i think this is still the best place to invest it i'm just gonna do that and like yeah if i lose it i'm so young that like yeah whatever i get the story and i'll just keep going like i'm not gonna and the way you said it like the my meter went from oh my god this guy's insane to like honestly i see this perspective which is that two billion bucks changed most people's life but you're were like i don't think that i doesn't give me where i'm trying to go yeah and in fact you know if i still believe in this i just wanna see where this goes in for you know for a while as crypto as n entities is you're right like became the thing that year yep you know there was sort of like a peak moment in that where it became worth more than ten million dollars right so like would have played out very well timing is always very very tricky do you look at this as i was trying to try it i was trying to time a a bubble or do you look at this as i believe in this company and i still believe in this company and that's why i have the stock unbelievably in the company and also i was kinda seeing this is like there's there's like a few people that have like these life holds it's like you know you hold these think this is a lifetime hold this is like you buy in and you sell out whatever i was convincing myself off that it's like i i'll buy this and you know when this becomes like the next tencent cent i'll have a couple hundred million dollar stake and that's how and i didn't have to do it this is with the only events when i had to i didn't have to bake all these other investments there's still some like part of me that believes and that's it's like i i still see a pathway where like in the next twenty twenty thirty years whatever this is like a hundred three hundred three hundred billion dollar company or whatever and it's like i have i've got a pretty decent you know stake in that and so yeah that that's well as like convincing myself of that is a bit less nail during times like this but i still have some thing here where i'm like okay it may is it hard to not just get attached like identity wise to like i don't wanna be wrong yeah i'd made that mistake before like i think you know especially this is such an extreme case that's one specific thing you were so right you were boyd genius then it crashes but you're like am i now boy idiot or my boy genius is this the moment where i held through the tough times or yeah did i just fuck up and i need to learn that lesson like yeah really hard yeah i lied to deal with that well i think well i went into let me just like do something so i was like i still investing some money on behalf other people and i was going around and meeting meeting founders and stuff like that and that's why i'm like i'm doing something else right now so well okay yeah you have other bets yeah i've got all the so that that's what got me thought i was like if this goes away i need to make sure that this is the next big bet right i don't need to be i like i don't need to be right on this one like full you know if it ends up the way it's going i could i've got time to make more bets and right be really right on someone else yeah and also you had done so much generate trading that like you don't emotionally mood swing like most yeah the money well act like becomes play money in a way well aside from adam mu i had a bunch of other token investments especially when when facebook renamed to meta remember i was buying up all the med coins to central land ac sandbox and so i experienced you know making millions of dollars like liquid cash i also i want a lot of lessons that i've also lost a lot of that money when you know i didn't manage to my risk post pushed up but i i experienced like the numbers just became like you're looking under the screen i have no attachment to it that we'd like those days where i'd be up a couple hundred thousand dollars like holy obviously i spent a lot of it but i was like right i was you know all of my boys were treated went out i when i eat we all yeah i was like i was pretty shine nerdy nutty guy right so i i didn't really know how to talk to girls but if you wanna let how to talk to girls get rich fine i have it's like a it was like a huge confidence for styles yeah why it's just gives you the confidence it's just this the confidence for you which hey you i think it a confidence it was like and if she rejects me i'm still i can go look at my meta ass way feel good have always sell yeah it was it feels more like yeah and also for me like having two million dollars in a bank felt like a billion dollars to me if it's worse yeah i'm like i'm spending a lot and it's just like it's not going down because i'm like i don't have kids and i have family i don't have any have no obligations whatsoever so even a lot didn't put a big debt would you you do anything things stupid so yeah i got to the apartment i gotta i go to tesla i spent like there'll weekends where i get like limo app for me my boy would get like like guillermo like my birthday we got like three limo as we drove down to the a gold coast which is like you know with gold in australia i still happy to hear this because but i like i don't know if i paying you back there it wasn't much it was the the very first thing was was thirty k a yeah i think it was i started thirty k i think it went up after that they to maybe like eighty to a hundred yeah that's why i was paying you then and at well i remember at the time being like oh this is not gonna work these guys getting like super rich doing these like crazy investments on the side like yeah it's not gonna make sense for him to have a job at some point which is great like my goal wasn't to have you work for me for twenty years and was like here's a young entrepreneurial guy come get some reps with me come like just get you off the traditional path yeah and then like i hope you go do big shit and like you know i could be your biggest fan and and all that that's kind of what's happening here and i'm yeah i've had my popcorn you know watching watching you do this stuff and it's being totally entertained the whole way yeah because you definitely like had like a roller coaster you're kinda like those like wall street bets kids basically like yeah i was on wall street bets like some themselves like high school like i yeah i was always on that phone farm there's the equivalent yeah in australia there's i think called hot copper which is like the equivalent wall street bets and on there i was like the most active person out got and my nickname was mister silicon valley because i just investing in tech stocks right and i'm like if he go like everyone can look at my profile it's like i'm i'm tweeting about adam mock i'm like talking about adam on that platform there's other a company called brain ended becoming like a multi billionaire dollar because the ai craze and and stuff like that i was constantly looking at anything to do with what is like the next hundred x stuff this for me it starts out kind of that so you totally same story a billionaire takes you out the lunch and just like what's the next ana mocha he reads the article and he's like i gotta meet this wiz kid takes you out he's like what's the next one yeah yeah yeah you shoot your fancy immediately you're like i don't know fucking know yep because during that time like i'm i mean this is z arrow alright so i'm like everything i'm telling people to invest it's going up and up and up and yeah know i'm genius yeah i'm genius and so i was like oh shit but i truly believe i like i don't not could just raise it a billion i was like you should you should invest out adam marco adam market is the that's that is the next thing and he was like oh okay whatever blah blah blah and in the next few days but inside he's like goddamn i love that confidence yeah next few days he ended up becoming like the top ten shareholder and the company bought out tens of millions dollars of the stuff and it obviously you know and market get in stop at a billion yeah so you made you know over nine figures in that so that then that tipped a little bit on the on the way out or took the dealer or not there's that comment that i thought fair enough yeah so alright so you go through that crazy journey one of the things that comes out of that was you were then on behalf of this guy plus other people you were doing other investments yeah and one of them is shuffle let's talk about shuffle so yeah you had it's flagged me a while back and you were like hey crazy story i think on the pod i was like can't tell you who told me this right yeah now it's all now it's like way more public or like at the time yeah you were like hey there's a company called steak yeah that is making unbelievable amounts of money you were like they had like a whatever eight hundred million dollar dividend last year like that's just that's the profits they took out you're like this guy one of the owners i how old today they're like they're know like late twenties mid twenties yeah like twenty seven years old about a fifty million dollar house in australia yeah i got like whatever of a hundred million dollar house and it's like that's how you know someone's like rich by the way when they're yeah buying like we'll look at the real estate yeah that is like that when they're buying an asset like that like that because people didn't know it you know articles are basically like mystery you know mega millionaire buys fifty million dollar home and then it was like they had two companies they had like a software company that makes like dan olsen for yeah it's like it makes like the gaming software to go play like the games and then they have stake which is the casino they're like basic crypto casino and they're like you know intertwined companies or whatever yep little alameda you know f shit getting some vibes here as i have describe it all out but either way like steak has been you know it's become like huge and they have drake playing and and whatever gambling shit like that so you meet these guys who were doing a competitor to that in a way yep how do you describe shuffle and tell us about like this crazy space i only know what you told me about the state thing at the time yeah and then since a bunch of users come out like kind of validating what you said tell me about the space and tell me at the time sir i was so i was traveling around this australia meeting other founders and i was at this dinner and at that dinner the guy there was a guy that was like pretty good friends with the state cofounder and he would like say these numbers this is before the articles and stuff like that so he would say some bash shit crazy numbers and i'm like if these numbers are true this is the fastest growing text startup in know australian history like this is maybe in the world like this is like very i mean founded in twenty seventeen and they're under a couple billion dollars in revenue this is like some kids in their twenties right so i initially heard that i was like okay and already at that time i i wrote messaging you about i want to start like a crypto trading like let people do i almost thought a i i think i i titled the document i wanna build like the world's largest casino right and i wrote this stuff yep and the way that that product is actually like a huge product down i don't know if you've heard a roll but they have like a crypto trading thing i was looking to the that but that's like regulatory just like a n it's like an unlicensed thing and and so i was like okay but i see this gambling stuff it's it's huge stake as you know they just did a billion dollars a net profit in you know a single year how do i get some exposure to that and this going back to like how i find these opportunities i just remembered there was another like hidden uni that lived a whole different me in australia that posted his research on after pay and this was like a couple of years ago and i don't know why he popped up in my mind again so i went looking for an article i found his name and i hit him a message i went in like hey like you know what are he doing these days let's catch up and whatever and yeah we caught up and then that's when he starts telling me about like these other crypto kids in australia that have like made it pretty big doing all this degenerate stuff and they're starting a crypto casino and it's gonna be a competitor to not to steak but this like it's the thing the market is so huge there's i could you know there's a there's a few other competitors that are also doing a billion dollars and this is not really reported right it's kind of like a yeah kinda shady industry so i was like okay alright for me you know coming from pretty small town in australia when out when you meet other people that i kinda like you and we all had a like success in our own german domain i'm like if we just come together we're gonna hit something big and i just wanna to be around those people right and so it was more like a bet on like of yeah just like also ambitious smart slightly need to degenerate or very autistic yeah was like twenty jumped down year old basic yeah and these people we've all we've all kind of been through the same thing of making a lot of money losing a lot of money so we can kind of like lean at each each other in that way like they we understand each other in in the and that's so by the way this happens in like it's happened in on online cover i remember at like the rise of online over and the kinda of poker kids who all made it and they all kinda lifted houses together and yeah figured out how to like each like beat the game together basically same thing happened with social media so like the tiktok or the vine will all went and lived in the same building in los angeles right collab with each other plus traded tips plus like we got brand deals for each other and they all like rose up way faster than the people who were on their own or didn't have the kinda of connect just was like junk out yeah so yeah so that that that's how i met them but i was like we all kind of agreed a lot of the background of the shuffle team they come from like the big exchanges f is one of them bit max crypto dot com that's all that backgrounds so we'll had be hard i heard of the sketch world this sounds like we we'll and yeah obviously i i've traded in all of them and we all just had like we all agreed on this macro thesis of every single cycle there is like this one clear big winner which is the exchanges right they their business model is every bet every degenerate bet take they have a little fee it's called transaction fee for them for us it's called hazards but it's the same exact thing same model yeah the same model struck the legal structure is actually really similar as well they will like get a license out in essentials or or you know f fta bahamas cedar is i'm the dutch caribbean and k out so it's was like there's only similar similarity what is that there's like some place that's like they just made it their business some some country be right now city yeah yeah k yeah that's the that's where the hell is k out what is that's true it's just a place where you can i mean anyone if you wanna get a license to do like an online crypto casino you could probably spin one up in like six weeks and it's very that's their model there they're like we're open for business for casino for online casinos was basically yeah and like that's where everybody goes to get their yeah like we're we're like in the same structure at stake and you know all the other guys we're all under the same license and there's some risks to that obviously share what happens to license how long can you use to to play this game and you have to just sort of calculate what what i'm amount of risk you wanna take there but yeah that's that's it's exactly the same as these exchanges that were out out out you know in the essentials or or bahamas and so we saw that well like okay here's a clear difference between exchange to casinos though exchanges are raising at tens of billions of dollars and that they've got all the fame whereas you know in if people just understood it if this was more public on how profitable these casinos are and how they're very similar businesses to to exchanges then you know there be some re rating evaluations for these for these for these casinos and so that was like that's all the but a lot of these investors and funds they have like a no vice clause right yeah but they just can't invest in but they can't invest in gambling or porn or whatever even though there's money to be made there so i think like that's one of the other reasons is like yeah some people just either themselves individually morally at say that or their fund charter basically prohibits them from doing those things so they're just like out on yeah no even if they know it's a great business setting i who doesn't think a casino is an amazing business we we we raised the seed route and that was like the hottest he i regrets was was not investing i tried to invest of every i was like oh it's like one entity here here i was like oh god like i have other people's it's my own money fine but when have other people's money you i have to like you know think twice and just in that time they like closed or whatever yep but by anyway like that's we we agree that in this like next cycle whenever it is could be five years down a who knows but in the next cycle for crypto we believe that there will be one two or three casinos in the top twenty of of all coins and that's billions of dollars of of value that we think that you know we could we could do and had a big difference with us is like like i'm on this podcast right now like we're not anonymous like we're not like these people that like all these crypto casinos usually they're like very anonymous people and i mean if you're putting your money into a platform you wanna know agrees behind it right you wanna know did you guys but how you like all the f that as you follow all the stuff going on right i'm really an any end of this trial it's like my soap opera right now that i'm paying attention to it's your urban empire that's here's my roman empire exactly do you to following it and also so like how do you feel about that how do you think like because it seems like crypto casino is like risk times risk in that sense like i don't know something be between you know malpractice to like you know the craziest that comes with with just that amount of money flowing through something yeah and you said you have people that worked in some of those places what did they i guess what stories have you heard and i guess i don't know like not like ish spokesman you know like not you professionally if we can just like my friend like the how how do you think about that stuff yeah it's like it's i mean being encrypt already you already you have like an appetite speculation and so anyone that's already in the industry it's like your you're taking some that you're taking some risk on okay there is some like regulatory risk already that one day this this license might close down in your businesses like you know screwed up like and so you have to be kind of smart and calculated about that like hey what are the other licenses can we start build building it up like we had to build our entire platform like in a modular way so if something happens to one license we can split off let's say a cedar and then put a license to sports and offer in the different regions so it's just like lost it's like we to move the island yeah yeah lost it's like we we moved it it's yeah so so some regulatory risk to some it's funny like products have most startups have product market fit risk yep we don't know if anybody wants what we have donna yeah just you don you have no market risk then the second tier is technical risk it's like if we can make a whatever self driving car right people are gonna want it there's no market risk but there's technical risk can you even build a self driving car yeah but this there's no technical risk either you right like i mean obviously you have to do technical work but it's not that's not the risk in the business it's all regulatory it's all regulatory risk in this yeah it's just so different than like ninety nine percent of the other start ups side look at yeah very few times you to just just get regulatory risk it's also just like actual risk that you have to manage of your book like limits that view like we will sweat sometimes like when we because we had to stop upping the limits yeah there's some high rolls are come here go like we i wanna do a ten k blackjack black guy i do a twenty five day blackjack fan and he just like okay holy shit we have to what you know if they have a few good runs you could be all of a sudden down a couple hundred thousand hours at seo revenue as probably always guaranteed i that's also like the biggest difference in this in the with the traction so you guys launched i don't know win in february of this year yeah what's the what can you share traction wise so you know we're probably gonna do a half a billion in volume like this month and you know this is generating a few million in revenue a month and hopefully this month will be a few million of profit a month and you know we this is also another thing that like these businesses are built to strip out the cash flow it's like you you you build the business and then you have you pay this out this is not like you know praying for some exit we all went into it knowing that no one's going to buy a casino know right we build to make a lot of money and then you know ship trip the strip the money out and paid it out to all the holders of of the business so right that's also like yeah it's a very like yeah it's great yeah it's a good problem yeah we've it's only be a couple months but yeah it's yeah probably fifty million run rates probably where we're at right now super impressive crazy any good stories about like i don't know how did you bootstrap it where'd did you go get your first customers how did you know because that i was your job yeah yep so could you be like i'm in fucking asia right now you know many people but when you doing asia you're like i'm i'm build the brand i'm gonna figure out how to get this thing out there out this is like a really the the first thing that i i don't know why i didn't really know this but the people that come in play on your site if they like to gamble you know they're probably also have some other viruses and like they're probably not some of them are probably you know can get very angry very because the whole thing is about either you make money to lose money so when they make money obviously they're happy when they lose money you know right this place especially this beyond like i'm going to find out where you live and i'm gonna find out like we so that was like the when you talk about your first time customers like if first time customers are are pretty rough people that you to do so i mean the first thing we went to was we're all a bunch of crypto kids that made a bunch of money and a weekend gamble it ourselves so we're like we already had a lot of other crypto kids i made a bunch of money and you know like gamble so we went to those guys first and like hey come come you know play our website and and test it out and we would you know there's little tricks and stuff of like stuff with like deposit bonuses and like kinda like standard kinda your standard like sports play motions and stuff like that one thing that i think we did that was oh that that's pretty interesting that we found out was okay we should stop spending so much time trying to get thousands of people who will deposit like ten twenty dollars or whatever because they'll come on they'll come in your assignment it's good for them to you know play but they will lose five dollars and then you know spend forty eight hours in your support you know i'm going to kill you where where do you guys live i need my five dollars back versus like okay let's let's maybe try and find customers that you know not like that and we go pretty lucky in in some us of asia especially japan right like they are they are people who bet really big and they're very respectful and they're like they don't waste any of our time like they will lose money if they honor yeah so it's like okay these are the customers we want now we know the customers that we want and it's good for the business and yeah we started making some pushes there and and trying to find yeah this is a pretty heavy like affiliate business you wanna find you want other people to go and do the work because you can't do facebook we can't do facebook guys were prohibited from doing google so you can't do ppc so you have you have to find it really creative ways i'm trying to acquire customers and yeah that those yeah well this is why like steak i think bought are they created kick yeah and they're basically like paying twitch streamers you know jobs of money reportedly like fifty million hundred million dollar contracts to come play because they're like oh these are popular people one of the things they'll play will give the money to gamble on our platform that gave drake like tens of billions of dollars like go play show people that you're doing a twenty million dollar bet yep and are your gambling twenty million dollars one night it makes you look like a baller yeah it creates great content that's gonna go viral and get you likes yep and all those people are gonna see that gambling loves take is fun and drake does it right like that's like they're yeah that accurate that's my perspective so stake pioneered that model ill like we can't bid on these other channels with all these other crypto oh like other casinos and so let's try and find other ways and the streaming model like they find that it the f about also is that instead of like an influencer posting a picture saying hey come play on steak they're playing the product they're showing you how it works they're seeing their reaction they're you're seeing the reactor in picture out the whole thing so it not only are you educating people about how to play it and how to like the this like next level in terms of i guess like play a value as well like like they will deposit and you know they'll play they'll lose and then one they're watching you the favorites streamer will play again they're like time for me send deposit it again so we found out like the affiliates or the influences that are really like they have a disco channel or they yeah they have a you know they they constantly like live streaming brett those you wanna make sense something you said like we would not like rather than have you have a million followers we want you to have you know two thousand people like active and a disc discord that you talk to all the time that's more valuable right like and i i think this doesn't just it this isn't just for like a casinos i think like for eco comm and know like there's people electric facebook groups and right anyway anywhere there's like a concentrated like you have like there's thousand you know loyal fans whatever those customers are worth yeah all the money we did a influencer campaign we spent a hundred thousand dollars on influencers it's probably the first like paid influence campaign we've done yeah so we put out was like let's try hundred thousand dollars and we're gonna spread that across these like think we did seven influencers i think right as so these people who have like you know let's call it two hundred fifty thousand to like three or four million followers on instagram and i showed you not some people some of those people who have a lot of followers literally had zero conversion that's zero like dude i could post on facebook you get one conversion like it's crazy some people kicked ass and as was like what's the difference i've noticed that you know the instagram has this one feature which is like when not everybody has it but like you can broadcast so i don't know if you've seen this but like is just like almost like one to many group chat yeah you can send a message and they can only emoji g react they can't like it's all your fans can chat back but it looks like a chat right and i noticed that the people who have active versions of those where they'll just be like oh you know my favorite mug yeah it'll get like three thousand like lights there right that's a way better signal for who actually converts versus like just a generic post or story or follower count yeah which is like you know neither here or there and i think it's that really move product you can tell like the difference in it it's also just about them being like very high intent and so i think about the people that would go into that broadcast channel in the first place it'd be like small percentage of like that person's like most loyal like fans or whatever that are active and you know alright yeah so i think for i like that back that could be applied everywhere wherever you can get like who cares about trying to get you know four million impressions i just wanna get want my product in front of like the thousand most keep using the world general but not general like you know whatever the thousand people gonna by the way hey i used to generate positively when we were hiring we used to you know companies have like corporate values yeah it's like integrity yeah and honesty and like was like everybody has the same that's not values it's like don't somebody or something i don't know ours was d desi yeah and people were like why does it say you should be a degenerate tour here and we were like what it is like that's what we will we want people who are who like when they work on something like there's just two types of people there's some people that like you they work to live and some people live to work right like rhett we are the types that when we do a project we go all and we love doing it yeah we ob obsessed over making something fucking awesome that's gonna take a lot of work and the late nights we don't wanna feel like we're like asking for a favor every time we try to go above and beyond to do something cool like right and but it wasn't about working hours only that was just one aspect the other thing we used to say is like we noticed that the people who were the best earlier in their life had a degenerate like obsession with something that wasn't it like the thing your parents would reward you for where the school would reward you for right so for a lot of people was gaming it's like oh yeah i just spent like an un undo amount of hours in in ultimate four or like in a rooms scape or something like that that was such a strong signal to us that like this person is gonna be great now with us because they have that switch where once they get really into something they practice to like to master it and they get obsessed they wanna beat the game and like they're not doing it for the because people told them to do this they're they're doing it because they can't not do it yeah and so we found that people who had early obsessions in life we're the best people that we wanted to work with do you also want that in customers or an influencers got people that are diehard hard fans like why do people love taylor swift like swift they just they identify and tribe is what you want yeah and i think that they're like whether people like the idea of a crypto casino or that makes them feel like really crazy or whatever i think that the marketing lesson about how these guys marketing themselves was like one of the best like marketing hacks that created a multi billion dollar outcome was this one realization that hey let's pay these influencers and celebrities to specifically do livestream on twitch which was not the main marketing channel for ninety nine percent of other brands let's give the money to gamble so that people can watch the the the sort of thrill a victory of the agony of defeat yeah live in real time and that is the best marketing for our product i was i was better dad i also think for those guys i think that really that like one of i like fascinating entrepreneurs to come out of australia because i i think for cake it's not it's actually i think the goal here is alright they've now you know made this five to ten billion dollar like crypto casino it's like where's is this they wanna go more now this you know twitch was valued at forty fifty billion i think these guys legitimately just wanna go it in and yeah well wanna the money to beat wanna yeah what use just want to like this is their next thing to get them to like i think they wanna leverage they were already working with aldi these streamers paying them you know millions of dollars to gamble it's like well let's actually just also pay you guys ability dollars to stream but on our platform it's like i think they saw a sort of gap here they they came at the right time but i yeah i don't think it's just forget i think these guys truly you know love way that works because streaming doesn't make that much money yeah yeah and to there is no way that that works in the sense that you know they would really have to be betting that they could and you know okay so i don't think it could work but here's the case where maybe could so i remember so tiktok now is obviously massive yeah do you remember when tiktok came out so like yeah it was musically and then they did like a musically and musically was doing good but didn't like make it to like the full mainstream i mean it was kinda still seen as this like kitty lip syncing kind of it wasn't like tech tiktok today you can go learn shit yeah you can you people make your laugh you can promote your business you can sell products you could that's that music was literally like t girls lip syncing right that's like it otherwise right there's like more of what the more of what the product was so then they re rebranded it to it's like they get bought they re rebranded to tiktok which like i remember laughing about the name like what is that name and they literally spent a billion dollars marketing that app to make sure every teenager hasn't installed on their phone yeah and like i we had a kid who was working for us at the time that was in high school but he would come and work at our office i was like i dude what do your friends think of take tiktok he's was oh it's like the joke but he's like you gotta say like everybody knows tiktok he's like there's not one filler person in my school that doesn't know tiktok he's like we don't think it's school yet but like i gotta give him i'm like a hundred percent of every kid in my school is aware that there's a tiktok app that they want you to download yeah and like they actually brute force like created the network effect i guess there's a world where kit could do that but it's also i think that banking on maybe they do something where the friction to buy something on live streaming is lowered and yeah that's a whole new like avenue i i think there's i think they know that the traditional model is not going to ever work and that let's just get all the eyeballs and then maybe they can flick some switch somewhere and you know like instagram real makes like ten billion dollars a i don't know have but like you can plugged into the world's greatest add engine in the world mean facebook's ad engine is the greatest ad engine maybe google's one or two but like it's plugged it the real based app was running because it's plugged into one of the greatest money makers ever and live streaming is live streaming commerce is like a pretty featuring in asia it and so if it could if it can somehow work in in western markets i think like there's something i think there where they could flick the switch and then you know this is this is how they go from we're already worth a couple billion dollars how do we get to ten twenty fifty and maybe they're in care about how much they work but what's like the biggest game yeah what's like the next they've already won one games like how do we how do we get to the next so i think yeah that that's super like i think movie wish to probably know about those guys are you like i'm gonna be able to degenerate forever or you like you know i'm just gonna do this for this period and then i'm gonna do something else well i'm i'm i'm just i really wanna to be upon something that could be huge and that could grow really fast and so i i want to do that with shuffle and you know ride this wave like will i do another thing in sports betting or gambling whatever i don't know you know maybe not but i like like i you earlier before it's like you make you're not and go to your noble mission yeah i i think i think i'm might justin mayor's quote yeah love that love that quote i love that quote not because i think it's right but because so many people when they hear that they're like that's what i'm doing yeah because it's such an easy out to like just find anything that you're doing in the moment because you're like i'm gonna do the noble mission later and so i love it because it's hilarious how much people love that crow i don't know if it's good wisdom or bad with was i to tell but what by the way what ideas do you have so yeah of you know you know that's what me do here i'm gonna i'm gonna get out of my notes top really quickly okay and we've might already talked about some just really quickly there was before we talking about kids that were playing rooms get and stuff like that i literally have already won in here in inc incubator around kids who are building businesses within games i like that because i think every lost and yeah every so i guess during my era like i'm a bit old in now during my era it was kids that were building microsoft servers or i know for the guys that did stake they were ro kids they they built a casino in ro scale first and then they did there were weren't things so it's like rune scale minecraft i think now it's like roblox or like maybe like fortnite creative maps and stuff like that like if you're building business within games every single person i've met that's done that they're all like super successful millionaires but i heard percent i think i tweeted the out i go what people think of six of the like winners backgrounds looks like yeah you know what the world tells you is it's like you know good grades it goes to good school yeah has good internships and like you know after school activities runs for student counsel but it's like what i've seen is like where the real winners are are like the kid the guy who's running his own gaming server when he's fourteen yeah kinda because he just wants to be able to buy games he's not like even running that as a business right like the sneaker head like sneaker flipper basically you know people that are like hardcore gamers that are like become best in the world at a video game that's like super competitive yeah that tuck in like you know which requires skills strategy communication like tug like obsession those are pretty trans skills yeah you know speech and debate is another one like there's there's like un unorthodox backgrounds room is one that's crazy the rune scape mafia yeah a number of those rich young people i've met that the common denominator is yeah we used to be like i didn't i didn't play shape but they're like yeah rune scape has like the the marketplace or the plaza or something yeah and they were like yeah we to roll we used to run the plaza the question and i was like jeez this is something i have an idea around that which is i was like i wanna create kinda like the out past conference so basically what i wanna do is be like these are actual hotbed of talent yeah nobody's really talking about i wanna invite like the people who do that like your point of entry is like you you need to hit one of those criteria you run gaming server or like yeah you're like elite at this like you know i found this one they called mind sport it's like some place you go that you play it's like olympics but for nerds so you don't do you don't run you play chess and then you play back and then you play like yeah you play like this like advanced version of chess like go you play go you play like all these games and whoever's is like the best across these like ten really hard strategy games is like the minds sport champion yep and you know that guy's guys are free you tell guys are all gonna be amazing as soon as they decide like oh okay aside for we have a career now yeah as long as they just get to like funneling the right place and don't just go be a mckinsey drone like yeah you know those people are gonna kick ass so i'm like oh i want i wanna make things thing which free for them to attend but you gotta be the best of the best and i wanna just be able to like curate that talent and be like i'm gonna place my bets on these people now like hey if any of you ever started a company just remember this goodwill yeah of me bringing you here paying for all of this because i wanna be your first investor yeah i genuinely think that's gonna be like one of the highest roi things that i could do well i think a lot of so a lot of them get lost to like banking or something like that and then there's a lot of them as well that they just don't have guidance coming out of with the first thing that they do and so that they fuck around for maybe like a few years and then like was fun on out outsource because like they probably feel like i'm kind of like lying a little bit i i wasn't doing all the shit that the other like achieve her kids were doing but i no know trust me let me show you ten other people that are like you and then they're like oh i see myself in them like i can do it too this is yeah this is the basis of like a lot of sports like you see a guy that's from your hometown and now you start to believe you can do it too why do you like australian entrepreneur so much like what do you care it's like because they're from australia i'm from australia if they made it i can make you that that's cool but had you never heard of any you would probably also be you know banking somewhere you know on that and also like i think a lot of them when you spend your time but your childhood with whatever like in a room doing all this stuff you're whatever you're making money or like you're learning business skills but then you start lacking in other areas like barry so then like that that's setting up setting yourself a portfolio to waste some time with whether it's then afterwards you know you have some girl troubles or afterwards you don't how to do something with family or whatever blah blah at yeah i think that that's why i was great idea out i'm just gonna have a kissing bit and i'm not gonna have a high girls it's like y yeah if you haven't add your first kiss just let's just go we're gonna get that all out of the way we're gonna kill we're gonna crush these like lingering up to your head yeah but that that was one of them i mean what was your idea i i i told i got deal was like just like like like you know giving these like mentorship and like just like incubator yeah i guess like made a little y comb data thing for for these weirdo what i yeah there's a i was just at of conference i was just really surprised i something within conferences where i think maybe more people should make conferences for like cashed up niches because especially if you do like the exhibit model where it's like oh my god like that you know and some of these people are the one i just wanted to paying couple hundred thousand dollars for of for for a bruce so maybe that starts off as do your use newsletter whatever did you like the the low effort thing first a low price layer effort thing of newsletters whatever build that audience and then just immediately go into price you guys haven't done a conference yet because i feel like that would would make like an m m m1 yeah like an yeah yeah another one that actually kinda related i think this is kind of boring but like a crm for again like cashed up n niches so where right now looking for like a new crm platform and you know everyone goes like salesforce whatever but they operate in like a hundred different verticals right and so who's gonna get out ten k a month it's going to be the one that is still yeah built specifically for iga gaming which is out niche whatever right now like we're making decision and we're gonna go with some other small cup we're not going with salesforce we're going into the other one they're gonna get out you know ten grand a month whatever because they're specifically that's specifically for iga gaming right that's like another one that's a little bit boring but it's like you can just find like some niche are these other cash companies so like one for example i think is like farming right yeah yeah i know i mean any real estate is another one right yeah within that you could even be like senior living or right hvac you know like things like that were you know that everybody there can spell eb or like well it's like it's i think for anything that the interactions or the behaviors of your customer is iv very it's very high value but it's also it's very different to like maybe like an e com whatever we're like oh like just a transaction like on our what it's like you you have a bunch of games that you like and you spend know we wanna know exactly if you've lost this amount of money in an next few hours we wanna like make some contact with you and stuff like that we can't really do custom behaviors like that with like a salesforce because or or like whatever else crm platform because it's it's very tailored to sorry broad niche so anything that has like you're saying high value customers and then basically figure out like first principles what should this look like for niche yeah yeah i think something like that that's pretty good i like that'd be a good idea i think that's a very like that's a very good sandbox for somebody that wanna to explore and we we just worked have this for it could be someone that does like sort of in in the gaming biz there's you know vip like vip make up your hold type business of we're talking about there's actually other verticals as well with where vip is like your it should actually every single business probably has vip that they're just like not interacting with so maybe like vip medicine software for e com right for whatever you know even for like retail businesses or whatever like you probably have yeah you probably have like customers that will come in let's say i i started getting to like the hot cold exposure pair stuff so that nice i started going like how to tech bro of you of like i started going into these places like you know three four times a week but you know if these guys just would have no that like i'm paying this much my amount of money right come up upsell me on something else which there's something else like i think that even like retail businesses like just if you were to focus less of your time on trying to you know broaden and like getting know ping on these facebook ads to get the next thousand customers what about the ten that's gonna spend like you know you know whatever five ten times more on the business so that's probably i think some of management software for that's gonna be i think could sit on top of whatever whatever niche you choose it could just sit on top of the current software and just be like yeah but this one is all about your vip and we're just gonna extract the data that we need yeah then give you the actions or the recommendations or the the triggers in order for you to like when should when should we reach out what should we give them what do they like it's that could that could be one this is probably not so unique but i think i don't i don't know if you've use these use people like this but like agencies for content that do it's like full service of like thumbnails and editors and i like i don't know how hard that is to find like people that really know their shit about you know creating online content because it seems like every single person wants to like you know be a personality of your bread right now and so people that i mean a lot of these are like uni kids that know how to do this but it's like exactly how to connect those middle yeah he'd be the middle man for you unique need to is like done for you so d d yeah so like people do this to e com now honestly i think they're pretty scam but they're like hey we will just hand you a commerce business that makes cash flow right i'd be like anytime someone promises you passive income just like run yeah but like that's what they're promising and a lot of people okay these companies that are promising this are making a ton of money and one of the reasons why is it's tempting to instead of just saying here we'll teach you facebook ads now you gotta go figure out the rest what product what's the supply chain what's what google ads what they're like we're just gonna give you the whole thing yeah turkey and so you know there's a version of that like there's video editors and content they're there's you know copywriter but like you kinda want the whole thing the sort of like done for you package yeah i think like a full service agency for all that sort of stuff might might work out try to think of what else see oh this one's kinda relate to like maybe what you did with shepard but so recently we like weeks we sent to had to expand in japan right mh and that is like none of us speak japanese was like we don't know how to scale in in that country and so well what we had to do is like first let me research what other companies have done and i remember reading i think maybe it was like a video when he at facebook and he was like we hired some mba and they flew over the japan they came back and you know a few months went by we weren't growing we're like what's going on we fired those mba we got this like young woman from that was actually living in japan and within the first month we're seeing growth and we're like wait okay what are you doing that these nba people haven't gotten she's like well you know on on the facebook profile like we don't care about your relationship status we care about your blood type had it's just like stuff like that that you would only know no translation and to find this people was like it yeah it's it's pretty hard to to do that so maybe if there's some like agency where like a we hired uni kids that are that speak native like fluent english so we can community communicate with though but also they're fluent you know in japanese and doing that like you know out outgrow is be like tedx of just like they know the market and terms they like that by none of them knew anything about like gambling don't need another we can teach them about right they need to know like what are the people like how do you communicate with them how do we yeah look localized all that content to everything to to cater to this market where and it's it's in certain denmark very important that you are respectful and you appear like you're not you appear like you're not a foreign company that's trying to attract the customers you appear like you're born out of that country right so so during that whole process for me was very hard to find like the right people that spoke english that also was native in in japanese and and knew that so maybe if there was some like shepard like agency to help you okay you're expanding to this country here's like you'll you know growth assistance that are naive that language and can do all these things that's cool i like that yeah there's two crazy things on that one if you look at the facebook growth chart like one of the key things for facebook was getting the site translated and localized across like and they did a they had to do some crazy wikipedia like shit to get the whole site translated because there's so many different i mean did the facebook site was kinda complex at the time and so i've remember seeing that that was very impressive to me second is there's a sub version of this which is just to do business in certain places you have to establish an office yeah like china you can't do business there unless you have a local office you can't do business certain places can't pay you you can't pay local people unless you have a thing or whatever and just that can take like a year yeah and so like i remember with twitch when we're a twitch it's like oh yeah we're trying to put our servers here we're trying to do this here we're use it then we had to use amazon's people to do international expansion like twitch even as a the multi dollar company didn't have like that expertise in house right and they would be like it's gonna be twelve months and they'd be like we're finally live in whatever so and so country with our office and i'm like what like and they're like that this has been a year of effort yeah that's insane like that seems like can we turn that to software somehow like the way that tri atlas did for a company corporation like is there a stripe atlas for the world in that way i've been a little funny story about the localization stuff so like everyone probably listening is probably thinking like oh but why don't you get ai to translate your stuff and it's it's not there to the point as we are using just chat a bunch of guys that were non japanese speaker of chat tier and you know we're talking to like very high value customers right and you know the ai hasn't really caught up in like turn or like certain like nuances answers and so apparently like you know we were talking to a vip like they were a kid like we're saying good boy or like stuff like that and yeah was yeah almost if people into that chair excited yeah these people like and then you know yeah deaf of these people definitely were they were like they on play with us oh yeah yeah like disrespect to naval lost so yeah so getting like a native yeah yeah getting like especially like we're just like that like getting like native people tonight i to speak yeah no way so what one of the vape weather the projects that worked on when i at twitch was like we were trying to grow like crazy in brazil and so i was like alright luckily we had a a group of people like there's four people in an office of brazil that like no one was even talking to too really they were like yeah they were so out of arms late from me had headquarters and i was like hey i'm here and you guys are like my key people they're like oh awesome we have so many ideas like can you help us do we're like yeah where was what sorts of ideas and they were like well you know are everybody here uses youtube and so subscribe is like how you follow people on youtube but on twitch subscribe is you cost money so if every everybody to hear they open the twitch app and they click subscribe to follow the some of they find interesting and it says pay five dollars right it's like dollars first of all five that's a week compare groceries yeah and secondly this like you have to pay to watch people screw this they don't even know that it's free to watch right yeah and like can you just change the text on that button and i was like oh damn how many more of those are there inside this app and another one was like were like kinda to come up like it's marketing campaigns like marketing like our marketing experts like coming up these ideas i asked the local team they were like hey can you buy it can you just give your a credit card i buy five iphones i was like iphones why he's like in brazil an iphone is like a gold bar like this is like he's like we're just gonna give these away trust me you'll get like twenty thousand people watching the stream i'm like what he's like this is a gold bar imagine somebody just giving out like gold bars he just kept saying that that and he did and it was just he's da and it's like all of a sudden was just number one most watched guy on i twitch that day was right the guy giving away with one item iphone and he he moved for like four hours he's like come not giving it away until we get like thirty thousand people in here yeah and he's like and it worked he is insane yeah this stuff like that that way that we find out like every week of like oh shit you guys actually do it this way and by else have you heard about what mister beast does with this it look like the dub of video this that so first he exploded his growth by just being the one of the few american youtubers to like create his brazil page create his philippines staff create his page he created separate accounts for all those localize localized them hired somebody who speaks the language and like y like when we were over hanging out with a some lady watching speak portuguese and i was like like yeah what the hell going on and he's like oh yeah she manages like my whole page for for brazil yeah you know like you have to have somebody who speaks language knows it and then what they did was i was like so do you dub it he's like yeah we dub it but we hire like voice actors i'm like why don't you you can use ai i i'm like excited to be like he's hear it yeah yeah i'm sure you can but like he's like what we do is we go and we find the guy who did the spider man voice in brazil and he does my dub for like pretty cheap and then every comment is holy shit at spider man yeah and like he's getting crazy engagement because it like that spider man and he's like yeah it cost me like an extra five grand but like look at what it did to my page i think they turn that into like agency where like they like all they do follow other people as well like it's they do the done for you they're like yeah if we did this for growth we should do this for twenty other youtubers and i was like dude of all your businesses like feast of bulls or whatever yeah this is like the most underrated one because i'm like this is genius it's selling your sawdust your your byproduct yeah stuff you've already built in a house you're just making it available for others like that's a and you're mister beast if you just said hey every youtuber like you can use what i use they'll all sign up so it's like instant customer acquisition paying and they take like they're like dude you don't even have a page in the philippines we're gonna run we're gonna create it we're gonna run a few we get half or whatever we get thirty to fifty percent right so it's like they don't just take like a monthly fee they own like you know left the majority like you know like a huge chunk of that channel i'm like that's a really good model yeah i wonder if anyone start like a roll up of youtube channels and brands or whatever like that seems like just like every niche ends up being like you get it rolled out you gotta get rolled out and do that saturday i heard this is potter no i haven't noticed so they're kinda doing it what they're doing is they go to the creators if they say we'll buy your back catalog right so they say we'll give you two million dollars a day you can invest that in your videos now to make better videos and they're like we can just see with adsense cents we'll make our money back in two years and then after that like forever we profit off your back catalog like the equivalent of like taylor swift selling exact masters whatever i exactly so they the this company is like i don't know raised a lot of money i don't know the key is underwriting it's like i don't know if they correctly under write these deals or not yep but like mister b sold a bunch of his back channel a that catalog a bunch of other people have so i think they've like either raised that a billion dollar valuation or we're close do that for you youtube i have a friend that i work with her manages speeds i you know you speed the the kids yeah he manages his ip i don't call it like whatever there's a video of speed viral youtube we'll take tiktok whatever they will claim it and then they make revenue of they'll actually they'll run ads on it and i think i think very quickly like just speed a awareness to generate like a million dollar so far and he's like we should just be doing this full like no just speed like all these different creators ad they'll probably down is yeah create like a big business that that that might be also like a another like within that because the way that works is if your video if your ip is being played by somebody else you can claim it in either they take it down yeah or you get all the ad revenue yeah exactly yeah and i i think eddy should just do yeah the el atlanta like a do that so because that they found like they're like just like for people creators like speed like a lot of the eyeballs that us that is on him is not on his videos it's on the millions of yeah compilation and stuff that are that's that's going un unplanned like you'll you're just like easy money that you could be claiming and and getting so yeah it's probably another thing that people should you know look into and this is so good this is great these are yeah some some these are fun ideas i'm glad we did this man is yeah this awesome and yeah sean where should they alley you or go what can they do yeah you can follow me just like twitter where's sean yeah sean but the last year letters and my name's cut us so this is hey jake here so in your your s h a a n yeah i'm i s h a n h hq that's that's my twitter nobody else h is in america h is that but yeah fault follow me on twitter if you're all linkedin or it's look me put it in the in the description dude amazing i'm proud you know this has been self amazing to i've done the validate yeah yeah you you know i i'll say it i i am super impressed and i just i'm so glad you kind of you you've taken you know the ball run with it and you're taking just such interesting shots on goal yeah and like whether any of these work or not right now is pretty secondary like yeah by the time you're thirty your score board is gonna be filled up you're gonna have made all this success as you whether it was this or that i i don't know which one yeah by the time you're thirty you're gonna have it all done and in terms of like you know the achievement side but you're also just gonna have had so much fun right and like you know these lessons you're learning about like hiring these kids in japan because of this yeah those are the real lessons of business and so so glad you're you're getting man this is so cool to see thanks i appreciate it i've got one last question yeah yeah ira you said so i felt like your one life goal was like i think i was like you wanna educate was a one sum of the world or or whatever i i what i said what had said at the time was i wanna be like for one percent of the world i wanna be their favorite teacher yeah like you know which was at the time i think like sixty million people or something like that i was like if if sixty million people thought like because like for me i'm like oh like i learned so much from tony robbins or tim ferris or n ball are these people like i'd love to just be that for for people i think that's like yeah i know what they kind of have done for me that'd be still cool if i was at for other people that would i think that would be like the highest calling for me yeah yeah and do think so is that a is that still the case and then b like do you still wanna do that then b like what do you think will be the well what do you think will be like the avenue that way you're achieve about like is it pot is a because you're already in the ears of you know all all these be whatever those stats are now yeah a very different so what stats where we start yeah but be so it's not actually that go that goal i think was arbitrary like who cares if it's sixty dollars who cares if it's one percent it was ambitious it's like it's a yeah it sounded good but i'm like i only need to say this to myself like i don't i i need to believe it for myself what this what this actually means and that's not something i like needed to die to do you know like i i didn't like feel like it was do or die to do be to be able to pull that off it was something that like sounded better than what i really meant it was also kind of virtuous like you know i don't know even if like teachers is the right word but i guess the thing that i think about now is almost like the d i i stripped the ambition out of that and just made it really simple but more true for me which was i want to be somebody that if i was twenty one i would look up to this person like gotta be like that is what i wanna be that guy is awesome and that's a combination of things for example part of it is making content being out there otherwise i wouldn't have even known that this guy existed part of it is do cool shit so that like stuff that like i respect more i think it's cool in some way some of it is like build a business some of it's like you know this out cast conference like that's cool i'm like i like his reasoning behind that i like that he wouldn't and did it or like you know you know just giving somebody you know a bunch of money because you believe in them and like my version of phil philanthropist it's not like donating to the cause and going and sitting on the board of some nonprofit but like if you see somebody who's got dream like fund it and like make that happen so i wanna do cool shit that like i would respect and the last part is the way you come across like i know that my favorite people were charismatic storyteller they were funny they were likable they didn't feel like they were bullshit you they had moments where they were honest and like they could have just not shared that or they could have said a sanitized version but they chose to just be real i'm like those became my like score board is like would i at age eighteen to twenty four like would i have thought this guy's the man and like i know even at that time i like if i saw something that was awesome like elon musk oh he's amazing i remember watching some documentary about him on the plane before he even started like tesla i think or it was like long time ago and i remember thinking of this is awesome but he had like had four marriages at that point i was like that's not winning to me yep i like that he's an outlier in this one domain but like i didn't wanna replicate these other three so like you know to me i'm like the thing i would have respected is somebody was like just like they're really great to like for example one the things i wanna do instead of instead of doing another business or write a check is like i wanna go coach like a high school basketball team like mighty ducks style for a year or two years or something like that yeah and i'm if i remember if i had if old me if young had heard that some guy was just some rich guy was doing that yeah i would've have been like i don't care if he's not the richest or most successful that guy's awesome and i bucks so and so i just kinda wanna be the person like it was like we're like be who you needed when you're younger yeah not needed but like be who you would have admired when you were younger right and that's the goal yeah not the like exactly i had before which i don't know if it's better or worse but like it's more true for me so simon i have a i think you'll say some pub you're like you i think you went to la something you met a bunch of libraries rich people in ed at this point now i've met a bunch of billionaires days and i don't know the cool people and the most part like a lot of rich people like miserable and and like we mentioned before about the kids that stay in their room and build deep businesses they lack other right complain us in the life and i see that reflected throughout all these people that are yeah they've they've they've made a bunch of money or they've done this one cool thing but they've neglected every other part of their life and it's like okay it's there's yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't you know trade i wouldn't wanna i wouldn't wanna be in in those shoes so much of what the i forgot who it was with some guy talk to the insta yeah and he was like oh i how old and he was like i'm thirty three and he's like i would be and the sky worth billions he's like i'll do anything to be thirty three again and like i hear had trade trade all these money so it's like i see that a lot more now and i you know i'm hopefully mature you know the mortgage before i was like yeah i just wanna get all this and get the money and stuff like that but yeah i think that's something cool and one thing that one of the probably the most important thing not important but like effective things that i learned working on a year was i i maybe it was maybe you're talking a silly or silly taught to you this was like aggression like just being like aggressive and like getting getting things done and what you wanna add like i think most people don't don't do that like they don't follow up or you know they don't they don't be annoying like they don't they don't try to be annoying when i when i started the flag that i was like to okay things are moving way way way faster yeah i remember probably like because i used to kind of you were like my dear diary it's like come home and i'd be like i don't even know what time it was your time it is i'd would be like three yeah gonna be at three am and i'd be like hey i'm ready to work and like i'd be like i met this guy i noticed this thing and i like kind of like use you as my sounding board to like play some of these lessons back yeah so it's cool to hear what like stuck but yeah that that idea of like intensity is the strategy meaning like yeah this guy's not smarter than me he's not yeah more knowledgeable to me about this he's not like there's no special aura around this person what is it that's made this person so successful and what what do i what's the difference between me and them and i just noticed i was like oh he doesn't have these like imaginary walls where it's like you stop here right he's just like no like okay we wanna do this left like i remember one time we wanted to do a deal the guy who we wanna invest in this company and he was like there i was kinda of on the fence and he was like what if we just wire them the money and i was like two million dollars and he's like like yeah like we'll why the money's honest guy like we met the guy he's like not like a crook yeah he's like let's just why the money and then like i feel like that'll tip the scale if you want the money's in his bank account he's not gonna like one of like wire bag i was like this guy's insane it and like we had another moment like that where we were working on a one of the founders was like oh i really need to raise this round they're telling us this urgency i really gotta do this we're running out of money the the pitches are not going well the first few pictures didn't go well can you guys help we're like yeah we can help we can help right now sounded like an emergency oh well we got a a thing i'm like you got a thing you just said this is like so important okay whenever you can they go they get on the call with this we'll go through the deck before we we said send the deck in advance there's like forty minutes before the call what do most people will do forty minutes for their call this we'll talk about it in forty minutes yeah no no so he was like by the time the call happened you'd already emailed back like slides nine through thirteen suck eliminated slide four is backwards put it in slide one slide one needs to say this had already given them the full first round of feedback yeah they were like what the hell so they were like looking at it and we're like cool let's just make these changes right now and like no that's we don't want we wanna be respectful of your time is like the thing that's respectful for my time is like showing that you're like full force going for this not yeah that you're not gonna use my time i'm here to hell but like let's do the thing yeah you wanna make this awesome let's make it awesome so they start working on it and they're were like okay we we we know what we need to do next because we need to go pull some data and do whatever and so we'll check back in with you whenever he's like you know it was like noon he was like cool like let's check in at six pm today and they're like two calls in a day and even i was like two calls in a day i've never done that with something yeah yeah yeah have you ever scheduled two calls in one day with somebody like yeah never happens it's not that it's so crazy it's not like running into a burning building but it's kind of the business equivalent of running it it's like whoa that's unusual that's like a highly intense way to do this yeah and you could tell they were kinda shipped by it and then they did it and at six pm it was like still not that like exactly where we needed it to be or we realized something i were like cool nine am tomorrow let's do it again by the third day we were like this deck is in great shape but these guys were like worn out yeah and so we was like dude i'm just getting warmed up this is correct this is like what i live for is find the thing and laser in and did go for it and like what who says we can't meet price in a day who says that they said no to the first proposal well let's what you know there is some number they'll do this at what's that number and then like you know he'll just think about it differently yeah that stuff with me i'm grab that kind of that idea stuck with you i say it out loud so that somebody out there listening will be able realized like y my intensity knob is stuck at six yeah like ten isn't it more hours it's just like more focus and it's more intensity at the main issue and not self limiting and solved by by a fake imaginary walls that don't exist yeah yeah you gotta bring the engine nice school boy stuff that's where there we go alright that's it that's the pod i feel like i could rule the world and know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a less travel never looking back