Talking to a billionaire about how he uses ChatGPT

that's my advice is every day every day you should be in chat but i don't care what your job is right you could be a sal a restaurant and you should be using chat every day to make yourself better at whatever is you do can i ask you about the story really quick and you have like you have like a list of stuff here that's like all amazing it's actually a lot of it's very actionable but the reason i wanna ask you about the stories for the listener or da founded hubspot thirty billion dollar company you're the cto so you and your you're an og g for web one point o web two point o and your first round or one of your first rounds was funded by sequoia your partner brian is an investor at sequoia so you are in the insider yeah you're an insider i believe you may not acknowledge i don't know if you do it or not you are an insider the cool part is that you're accessible to us when did you first see what sam was working on and how long have you felt that this is gonna change everything so actually have known sam before i start open and i got access to the gp api it was a toolkit for developers to be able to kinda build ai applications right effectively and so i built this little chat application that used the api and so i could have a conversation with it so i actually built that thing that night it was it was a sunday i had the a full transcript two years the before chat came out so this four years ago it's twenty twenty so five years ago wow okay this summer and so even then it's like and like and as soon as i like you sort of have that moments the same that all of us have was chad i just had it two two years earlier and then i'm showing everyone like brian you are not going to believe like i have this thing you know through this company called open ai and watch me like type stuff into it and see like see what happens it's and we would ask it like strategic questions about hubspot it's like how should it like who are the top competitor like and they were even then two years before chat it was shockingly good but the thing you sort of have to understand at the constraints of how a large language model actually works is that you type and you have a limited just imagine this if we're gonna just use the your physical analog there sheet of paper can only fit a certain number of words on it and that certain number of words includes both what you write on it this is i want you to do this and the response has to fit on that sheet of paper and that sheet of paper is what in technical terms will be called the context window and you'll hear this tossed around it's like oh this you know chat pt has a context window of whatever or this model has a context window whatever that's what they're talking about alright so why is that why does anybody care about the context window it's like well sometimes you wanna provide a large piece of text and say summarize this for me well in order for you to do that it has to fit the context window if you wanna take two books worth of information and say i want you to summarize this in fifty words those two books worth of information have to fit inside the context window in order for the l to process it most the the frontier models are roughly a hundred thousand to two hundred thousand they measured in tokens which is like point seven five of a word but that's the way book so yeah is that the book it's i think it's an i i the average book is like two forty thousand words i think but i'm not sure that's not a lot so what i the way that i use chat is i'll like let's say a fun ways i'll i'll put a historical book that i loved reading and i'll be like summarize this so i remember the details you're telling me that if it's a thousand page book it's not even going to accurately summarize that book it won't fit you're like if you pay something large enough into chat or whatever ai application you're using it will come back and say sorry that doesn't fit effectively what they're saying is that does not fit in the context window so you're gonna have to do something different alright a few episodes ago i talked about something and i got thousands of messages asking me to go deeper into blaine and that's what i'm about to do so i told you guys how i used chat gb as a life coach or a thought partner and what i did was i uploaded all types of amazing information so i uploaded my personal finances my net worth my goals different books that i like issues going on in my personal life and businesses i uploaded so much information and so the output is that i have this gp that i can ask questions that i'm having issues within in my life like how should i respond to this email what's the right decision knowing that you know my goals for the future things like that and so i worked with hubspot to put together a step by step process showing the audience showing you the software that i used to make this the information that i had chat ask me all this stuff so it's super easy for you to use and like i said i use this like ten or twenty times a day it's literally changed my life and so if you want that it's free there's a link below just click it enter your email and we will send you everything you need to know to set this up in just about twenty minutes and i'll show you how i use it again ten to twenty ten today alright so check it out the link is below in the description back to the episode i usually use projects and i have like let's say a health project and i'll upload tons and tons of books or tons of blood blood work and i hope i'm hoping that it's gonna pull from all those books in my project is that true that that is true so here and and this is a perfect segue right because this is the next big unlocks so the number one thing to like understanding our heads is there's a thing called the context window here's why it matters so let's we're gonna take we're gonna pop that on the stack and we're gonna push on the stack and we're gonna come back to it so if before we have to remember is two things number one it doesn't know what it's never been trained on that's one of the limitations right so if you ask it something that only you sam have in your in your files in your email whatever that train the training model was i mean the was never trained out it's not going to know those things doesn't matter how smart is it just information it's never seen it's not gonna know that that's kinda of problem number one problem number two so let's say your website for hampton was actually on in the training side right because it's on the public internet or whatever but the training happened at a particular point in time like they ran the training ran the training ran the training and said okay we're done with the training now the machine is done let's let the customers in right now if the website changes it's not gonna know about those new updates that you made to your website because the training was done at a particular date if completed it's kinda training course right so those are two things we sort of have to remember is that it doesn't know what it doesn't know and number two that the things it did know were frozen at that put particular point in time so it has a seen new information and those are roughly large limitations right so especially if you're them to use it for business use or personal it's like well i've got a bunch of stuff that i want to be able to answer questions about or whatever inside my company or inside in my own personal life how do i get it to do that and so here's the hack and this is this was a brilliant brilliant discovery so what they figured out is to say okay let's say you have a hundred thousand documents that we're never on the internet that's in your company it's all your employee hiring practices your model here's how we do compensation all of it right like oh you have a hundred thousand documents and obviously you can't ask questions about those hundred thousand documents straight to chad gp doesn't know anything about those never seen those documents so this is and we talked about this two episodes ago this thing called vector embedding and rag retrieval augmented generation and i'll i recommend you folks go listen to that i think it's a it's a it's a fun episode but i'll just kinda summarize it which is what you can do what we do is to say we're gonna take those hundred thousand documents and we're gonna put them in this special database called a vector store a vector database and what we can do now is when someone asks a question we can go the vector store not the l go to vector store and say give me the five documents out of the hundred thousand that are most likely to answer this question based on the meaning of the question not keywords based on the actual meaning of the question so it's called a semantic search is what the vector store is doing so it comes back with five documents let's just say now as it turns out five documents do fit inside the context window so effectively we said okay well yeah what of a nice had you train on the hundred thousand documents but that was not practical because i didn't wanna expose all of that i'm gonna give you the five documents that you actually need i just say give it to you in the context window and now as you can imagine it doesn't exceptionally good job at answering the question when it knows the five documents that should be looking you just gave it to them right so it's having this so we'll kinda jump metaphor metaphors years like hiring a really really good intern that has a phd and everything right they went to school they read all the things met all the internet the intern knows everything about everything that ever was publicly accessible they're trained sc for the first day of work that's all i know they're not learning anything you and they know nothing about your business now it's like okay well i know you know everything about everything i have this question about my business here are five documents that you can read right now and answer my question just like oh i can do that i like that analogy the intern with the phd and everything because that's so much how it is right it's it's says helpful and available as an intern but it's as knowledgeable as somebody with a phd and everything yeah and then like you said you know my the another analogy for that is like it's a store you have shelf space which is kinda limited but they do have a back and you can always get send the employee to the back and see if they could find it in the back for you right that's kinda like what you're saying put in the database they can you'll fetch the specific thing that you're asking for because you know you gave it access to the back you gave it a badge and that lets it go in there have you uploaded all of hut like have you fit first of all i wanna know what your chat looks like i wanna know how you use it on a like i just want you just screen share just like show me exactly what you do but also have you uploaded your entire life like have you uploaded all of hubspot to chat where you could just ask you any question yeah multiple times right so and what format tell me how you did that so i did so open has called this it's called an embedding algorithm that takes any piece of text a document and email whatever happens to be and creates this kind of point in the high dimensional space called you know called a vector embedding and you know a point to high dimensional space so in three dimensional space physical space that we know of we think of points being in three dimensions x y and z x like here's where this point is in space high dimensional space you could have a hundred dimensions you could have a thousand dimensions and describe each document as this kind of point in space so what i've done so it used to be in the early kinda gp world the number of dimensions you had access to was roughly like a hundred to two hundred dimensions and so we would lose a while of the meaning of a document right they would sort of get it right it would sort of catch to the meeting and then then we went to like a thousand dimensions it's like oh well now it can much more accurately sort of represent and and capture a document of kinda arbitrary length and be able to find it give it a prompt given some sort of search query and then recently within the last year we've gone the the latest algorithm from open embedding algorithm is like three thousand and seventy two i think dimensions but but when where do you do this do you just literally upload it as a project do you do you had to do it api connection what what did how do you actually do api connection right in fact i'm running the middle lease let me see where it is now and anyone could do this are you have special access because you're friendly no anyone can do this the the the api for the embedding model they have two versions they have the three thousand dimension version they have a one thousand dimension version and is the results of this like are you driving a nascar and i'm driving like a scooter like is that the difference like if i just like for example what i will do is i'll just like download my company's financials and i'll upload it and then i'll like explain what my company does but the way that you do it is a lot different now are we talking a massive gap in results that you get versus what i get yes like this answer is yes and and the reason is like so i do i do that as well in terms of i'll describe the company or whatever i try to provide it context and that's why it's called the context windows you try to provide the l context for what it you're asking it to do you know the difference is that you know because i can go through like and by the way the richest and i'm working on a kinda nice and weekend's project right now that takes email which you know so you would be amazed like if you had to write no other words right now if you did nothing but say i'm gonna take all of my emails i've ever written that are still stored and give it to a vector store using an embedding algorithm and then use chad gp to let me kinda answer questions so if i wanna say oh i want you to give me a timeline for when we start first started using hub to name products or whatever how that go about or what were the winning arguments against doing that versus whatever like it's shocking how good the responses are would you give it access to that kind of rich data right somebody needs to create just like a ten dollars a month a single website that's like hey make your chat gp smarter and that's a website where it's like connect your gmail connect your slack connect everything i would pay them happily twenty bucks a month to just set this up for me so that my chat to begin my chat gp like the extra pill that says you now have access to my data is this because because you you're talking about like i have the api to the vector embedding and like well i have the flux capacitor too but i don't know what to do with it right like i need a button on a website with a stripe payment button that i could just connect the stuff is it is there is there a k band version of this oh there's i mean there are tools out there do and there are startups working on it right there's two pieces of good news one is there are startups working on the challenge here is not that they're doing a you know bad job the challenge actually comes down to if it were a startup up and a startup up came to you it's like oh we just started last last week but we've got this thing it it really works in fact dimension maybe investor how willing would you be to hand over literally your entire life and everything that's in your over to this startup like so part of the challenge we have is that the access control that let's say you're using gmail which a lot of us use when you provide the keys to your gmail account to a third party there's no degree of real granularity you can say oh i wanted to read the metadata that's like level one level two i wanted to read my full email in level three is i wanted to be able to write and delete emails on my behalf but if you wanted to like read like the actual body of that you email you can't say i only wanted to read messages that are from hubspot dot com or i oh i wanna ignore all messages for my wife and my family or whatever in the thing there's no way to control that right so you sort have having trust is there any product that you would trust right now or that you can recommend that guys like sean and i should use as chad gb add ons or accelerators no not not that i don't trust them but it's like i wouldn't trust really anyone right now with that and so of the reasons i wanna run it locally even though i know these things are out there i predict what's going to happen is we're gonna have any of the major players and you can see this happening already right we see this with you you have the ability to create custom gp and open ai and do projects and claude you have google gems which are essentially like a small baby version of this right i says oh you could upload ten documents a hundred documents that it'll let you ask questions against the what it's really doing behind the scenes is creating a vector store that's effectively what it's what's happening my expectation is all the major companies will actually have a variation of this starting with google should be the first one because they already have the data there is absolutely zero reason why dual gemini does not let you have a q and a with your own nail account that's just like insanely stupid right like i'll just go ahead and say it it's just it's just there's something not right with the world when they already have the data and it's like and they have the algorithm they have gemini two point five pro which is an exceptionally good model right so there you have all the pieces but have not yet delivered but i hope is just they'd tell me and sean we're early adopters but the with our technical what can we do to i wanna get it on this baby alright so give me give me two weeks so here's here's what we u so that's one thing i do trust that i trust myself i'm i'm an honest guy i'll give you like this internal app that i'm building let you point your gmail to it it'll go and it'll run for a day or two days or something like that and then you will be amazed you will be able to ask questions and by the way like and the thing i'm like working on now is once you have this this capability right like step one is just being able to do q and a right like oh just i'm gonna step to like imagine that fast forwarding like it has access to all of your kinda history so imagine you're able to you know what i'm not doing this by the way but if i were like i wanna write a book about hubspot and all the lessons is learned and out like everything it's all in my email do the best possible job you can writing the book if you have questions along the way ask me other than that write the book i think it would be able to write the book wow what what else are you doing with ai so give me your day to today i like for example the ceo of microsoft had this great thing where he goes i think with ai then i work with my coworkers and that really shifted the way i work because i used to brainstorm or have a meeting to talk about stuff like coworkers which is honestly always like a little disappointing i felt like i'm the one bringing the energy and the ideas and the questions and i'm hoping that they're gonna but dude just spa with ai first and then taking the kinda like dis distilled thoughts to my team of like here's how we're gonna execute has been way better like that little one sentence he said shifted the way i was doing it how are you kind of using this stuff yeah so a a couple things so i'll let let's start the high level and we'll drill a little bit so what we're used to with chat ep this is sort you kinda kinda early evolution most people's use is because it's called jar dot ai use it to generate things right generate a blog post generate image generate a video generate audio all those things that's kinda of the generation kinda aspect and that's part of what it's good at then you sort of get into the o but it can also kinda summarize and sizing things for like oh take this large body of text take this blog post academic paper and summarize it in this way or like so a seven year old would understand it kind of right so that's the kinda step number step number two step number three we're gonna get into how this is now possible is you can do effectively you can take action have the l actually do things for you and i kinda put it broadly in the kinda automate automation bucket like i can automate things that i was doing manually before and then the fourth thing is around orchestration it's like can i just have it manage a a set of ai agents and we'll talk about agents a little bit and just do all for me i just wanna give it a super high goal it has access to an army of agents that are good at varying different things i don't wanna know about any of that i just wanted to go do this thing for me right and then that's sort of where we are on the tilt the curve the first three things are possible today and work well today right so you can generate as we know it can generate blog post they could write really well it can generate great images now including images with text they can do great video now with you higher fidelity higher cohesion all these things sean so the thing the the vision you had three years ago when i was on was around creating the next disney the next kind of media company you had the tools now my friend to to finally start to approach that right but then you should sort of move into this is what we were just talking about this kind of synthesis and analysis thing that's this is okay this is where deep research kinds of features come in it's like okay well i want you to take the entire of the internet or entirety of what sean has written about copy and i want you to write a book just for me that summarizes all of that and ways i enjoy because i like i like analog and i like jokes and i like this and i like that write a custom version of sean p book on copywriting right that kinda of synthesis i think would be super interesting than automation is now possible so agent dot ai is of those things there's other you know tools out there that says hey i wanna take this work or of this thing that i and i want you to just do it for me give us a specific what's a specific specific automation that you view views that's like you know useful helpful saves time i'll tell you a couple one is around domain names which is okay so i have an idea for a domain name and i'm gonna type words in and these things exist and i'll tell you the the manual flow that i used to go to is it's like okay first of all i can brainstorm stone myself and come up with possible words and various of the words whatever here's the things then i'll say okay which domains are available after zero of them they're are good that will pop into my mind are like freely available to kinda just register that that was registered before okay fine then i'll say okay well which ones are available for sale k what's the price tag is that a fair approximation the value is it like below market above market we don't know because there's no zillow for domain names yet so create that so i have something that automate all of that and says oh so you have this particular idea for this concept for this business business whatever it is here names you're the actual price points here's the ones that i think are below market value above market value tell me which ones you wanna register that's in chad gb no it's an agent dot ai is where it lives right now but now there's a connector between agent dot ai and chat p through this thing called mc p which you'll hear about a bunch of if you haven't already one thing i i wanna kinda get out there just we keep connecting the dots looks like what i want everyone to have this framework in their head so we talked about large language models it can generate things we talked about the context window we talked about faking out the context window by saying oh we can do this vector database and bring in the right five documents stuff i'm in the context window here's the other big breakthrough that's happened i'll say recently within last year year a half is what's called tool calling and what tool calling is is a really brilliant idea and the tool calling says okay well the l was trained a certain number of things but if we had this intern that came in it would be like saying okay well whatever you know you know but we're not gonna give you access to the internet like that would be stupid right we would give the intern to the internet like if i ask you something that you were trained on go look it up right that that would be like like thing number one on the first day of work and as it turns out the l world the intro couldn't didn't have access to get internet all it had was whatever notes that happened to take during its phd training and all things right and so what tool call it allows and this is a weird weird approach to it but this is because the way l m's were so remember the the l it's architect is such that you give it the context window in it spits things out that's it it doesn't have and you can't reprogram the architecture now all of a sudden we're gonna give you access to tool calling so here's the hack that they came up with they said okay in the instructions that we give it in the context window we're going to say you have access to these four tools and it doesn't actually have access to the four tools is that i want you to pretend like you hacks have access to these four tools the first tool is this thing called the internet and the way the internet works as you type in the query and it will give you some things back you have this other thing called a calculator and you can give it a mathematical expression and it gives you an answer back and you have this other tool that lets you do this and you could have a number of tools and so here's what happens in the context window happening behind the scenes chat ep which is the the interface right now that is interacting with l you're not clock with the l directly right it gets a problem and it says okay by the way l i want you to pretend like you have access to these four tools and anytime you need them when you pass the note back to me that results the output just tell me what you wanna use one of those tools alright so we give it a query it's like okay well i wanna look up like the historical stock valuation for hubspot and when it changed as a result of is there any correlation to the weather is a seasonal or whatever it is right in terms of market cap of a hubspot versus seasonal changes alright well that's not something would have access to but here's what actually happens this is so cool right so the l gets it and the l m's in the context window that we gave it we gave it instructions is to pretend like you have these four tools one of which is stock price lookup up let's say historical stock price lookup it'll pass the output back to the application not us and say and it in the in the it says oh please invoke that tool you told me i had access to and look up this result i want you to search the internet for x what was the weather i want you to do this for the stock price and then we do that with the chat gp application fill the context window with whatever it is the l asked for and then pass it back in so the l effectively has access to those tools even though it never access to internet it never access the stock market it pretended like it had access to it and we never see this this is happening behind the scenes now here is the big massive unlock right which is well everything can be a tool right now you'll have to build this kind of vector store or whatever because you would never build a vector store of all possible stock prices from the donna time i guess you could but then it's outdated immediately now it's like what if we just gave a twenty really powerful tools including browser access to the internet well that's like a ten thousand hundred thousand times increase in that insurance capability right and so that's where our brains should be headed now which was exactly where the world is headed that says what tools can we give the l access to that will amplify ability and cause zero change the actual architecture literally it doesn't have to know anything but anything i want you to pretend that you have access to these tools it doesn't need to know how to pop for those tools doesn't need to know about api or doesn't need any of that stuff cutting your sales cycle in half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they use breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent qualified leads quadruple and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow do you think that i mean this is all mind blowing and you have an interesting perspective because you know i think three episodes ago that you're on you created this thing called word was it word word play word play that does like eighty grand a month it was just like a puzzle that you you thought it was amazing but now you have new projects you have agent ai you of the other things but you still run a thirty billion dollar company do you think that the majority of value creation like am i gonna is my stock portfolio going to go up because i own a basket of tech stocks or is the best way to capitalize as an outsider obviously you start a company or is it investing in new startups that are using ai or ai first startups it's a yeah it's a good question on neither an economist nor a stock analyst but i will say this the thing i'm most excited about with with ai and i actually said exactly this and a talk i gave well before gp on the inbound stage i said you know as ai is starting to kinda come up it's not a u versus ai that's not the mental model you should have here you're it's like oh well ai did then taking my job because it's me trying to do things that the ai is then eventually gonna be able to do the right mental frame of reference you should have it's you to the power of ai ai is an amplifier of your capability it will unlock things and let you do things that you were never able to do before as a result of which it's going to increase your value not decrease it right but in order for that to be true you actually have to use it you have to learn it you have to experiment with it and the only real way to get a feel for what it can and can do is you have to do this i'll give you the very very simple everyone should do this i do this personally is that anytime we're going to sit down at a computer and do something research whatever it is gonna do you should give chat or your ai tool of choice a shot at it try to describe and pretend like you have access to this intern that has a phd and everything it's like okay well maybe it doesn't know anything about me where of fines and then tell it a few things about you but imagine you have access to this all knowing intern that has a phd and give it a crack at solving the problem you're about to sit down and spend some time on and what you will invariably find number one is you'll be surprised by the number of times it actually comes up with a helpful response that you would never have expected would be even remotely able to do like how can it do that is because it has a phd and everything right and so now actually what we'll talk about reasoning and whether models are actually doing that or not if we have time but so that's my advice is every day every day you should be in chat if you're a knowledge worker at all doesn't not actually you don't not have to get knowledge worker i don't care what your job is right you could be a son a restaurant and you should be using chat every day for to make yourself better at whatever is you do and that might be the introduction of that phenomenal scale to bring it back to the which i never explained the word five at also doing thirty seconds so ortho means i'd line that's ninety degree intersection to another line and the most common use is when we have an x and y axis right was like oh the x axis and the y axis are ortho to each other because they have ninety degrees separating them the common usage when you say oh that's an fog concept it means it's unrelated is completely different that's not like the y x axis are completely independent of each other you can say oh you can be here on the x axis but here the y axis and they're not related to each other so that's what mean when i say ortho fa cause or skills or ideas yeah anyway is there anything you disagree with that's kind of the consensus because a lot of things you're talking about like hey ai is gonna change everything it's super smart agents are coming they can do some stuff now more stuff later these are all probably right but they're also consensus i'm just curious like is there anything you disagree with that you hear out there that drives you nuts where you're just like have people keep saying this i think that's either wrong it's overrated it's the wrong timeline it's the wrong frame it's whatever is there anything that you disagree with that you've heard out there i've heard variations two variations i disagree with one that i've i think spent so amount of time hopefully kinda of talking folks out of which is it's just auto correct it's not really thinking and and that's a matter of like what do you think thinking is right it's like okay well if it produces the right output to which we think would require thought so i think that is is is flawed reasoning to say oh well and this often comes from the the smartest people the most experts in their field because oh it's really like a s sarcastic parent you'll hear this phrase which is it's like a paul billy driven pattern matching based it just so happens it's been trained on the internet but it's not really like human intelligence and i agree with that phrasing which is it's not like human intelligence but that does not mean that all is doing is sort of mimicking sarcastic you know all the things i read before because in order to do what it does it is a form of creativity different from what we normally experience that's kinda of thing number one that i gonna disagree with thing number two is people are thinking i i both disagree with the all the scaling laws are gonna continue forever and indefinitely that the more and more compute we throw at the more knobs we put the machine the smarter smarter is gonna get i think there's going to be a limited to that at some point it's like nothing goes on forever it's going to instantaneously move towards we're gonna have to call with new algorithms so that's gp can't be the dual end of all things right there will be a new way you know discover think that's gonna happen but i i think the smart that i did not say this other people have set it the best way to kind of think about ai right now is as you use it is the kind of truly find a frontier of what it's incapable of it's like okay it can sort of do this thing but not very well if if that's the way you describe its response you are exactly where you need to be which is if can sort of do it right now sort of if you have to sq a little bit it's like it's it's kinda something but wait six months or a year right like it's that's the beauty of an exponential curve it gets so better so much better so fast that if it can sort of do it now it will be able to it and then it'll be able to do it really well that's the inevitable sequence of events that's correct and have you heard this about startups there's like a kind of the smart money and startups believes that the the right starter to build is basically the thing that ai kinda can't do right now that's the company to start today because you just have to stay alive long enough give it the the twelve to eighteen month runway that it needs for the thing to go from didn't really work very well to like oh my god is amazing but you've built your brand your company your mission you've your customer bet you've been building that all along the way and you're basically just betting you're gonna be able to surf the improvement of by the way that's that's how i feel up my company my company is not related to us but at all but in terms of like our operations were like things are very manual and i'm like oh my god once i'm able to finally implement ai when it it can work for this purpose my profit margins have go through the roof i mean that that's how that's how i feel about it but it it which isn't entirely related to that sean but a little bit do one one one thing i'll i'll plant out there since this is my first million wheat we like talking about ideas at a macro level here's it the entirely new pool of ideas that i think are now available on a trend that i think is inevitable which is have agents get better and better right right now most of us when we use use ai use we use them as tools which is great perfect fine over time you need to shift your thinking and think of them as teammates think of them as that interim that just got hired right and and as a result of that so let's let's assume for a second that i i'm right all we don't know is how long is it gonna take for me to be right is that we're going to have effectively digital teammates that are part of all of our teams every company is going to someday have a hybrid team consisting of carbon based life forms and these kind digital ai ai agents okay so if you accept that the way that's going to happen not going to be like all a sudden we one day wake up and every organization now starts kinda mixing them what's gonna happen is it's going to slowly introduce its so it's like oh i have this one task whatever that agent is better at is re it's reliable enough for the thing and the risk is low enough i'm gonna have it do that right well we already see elements of that but here's what's going to happen as a result of that kind of gradual kinda infusion and adoption of that technology the way to win and the opportunities i get created is like how do i help the world accomplish this end state that i know is going to come so here i'll give you some examples if we were to hire if you sam were to hire a new employee tomorrow here's what you would you would say oh well i'm going to onboard that employee spend a couple of days i'm gonna tell them about the business whoever's managing that employee let's say with the direct report of yours maybe you'll have a weekly one on one or every other week or whatever that one on one will consist of looking at the work they did whatever like over here you did this whatever and it could be copy editing it it could be anything whatever the rule happens to be you're gonna give them feedback right that's what you do for a human worker all of those things have a direct literally a direct analog in the agent world right and what we're doing right now is we're hiring these agents and expecting them to do magic just like if we hired an exceptionally smart has a phd and everything employee and expected them to do magic with no training no onboarding no no one on one know nothing well your results are black going vary they're gonna be crap because you not make the investment in getting that agent now the the the big unlock here so whether you're an hr person or whatever like figure out well what does employee training look like for digital workers what do performance reviews look like for digital workers how do we do that how do we do recruiting for digital workers how do we like what what are all the mechanisms that need to exist what a manager of the future what are the new roles that will be created as a result of having these hybrid teams it's like okay well now maybe we're gonna need someone that's like the agent manager human that knows all the agents that that are on their team or whatever and has kinda built the skill set how to do recruiting for their team how to do performance reviews how to do all of that but for agents or hybrid teams you know versus just purely human ones that that's just a whole other and we're gonna need the software we're gonna be the onboarding and we're gonna need training we're gonna need books written we're gonna need all of it to kinda adopt and it's gonna take it's gonna take years right it's not we're night two years ago i asked you is it gonna be as bad or i think you said i asked is it gonna be horrible or is this gonna be amazing and you said the i saw this with the internet nothing is as extreme as the most extreme predictions i listened to you and i trusted you then i actually think knowing what i know now i'm actually more fearful than i was a couple years ago where i'm like oh this is actually gonna put a lot of people out of work and it's maybe not good or bad but things are gonna change drastically more than i thought and mike so i i don't remember how i phrase the question but is this going to change the future more than you thought two years ago or less than you thought two years ago has your opinion on that changed i still think they're gonna be unrecognizable my my kind macro level sense and this is maybe just my inherent optimism about things is that it's going to be kind of a net positive for humanity and this is the other thing that you know lots of people would disagree with me on this like well is this an existential crisis you know to the species and i've not said this before but i'm gonna see how it sounds as the words leave my mouth i'm probably gonna regret it but in a way we are actually and sammy sean you said this earlier we're sort of producing a new species right so that's like saying okay well sapiens as they exist absent ai is likely not going to exist so the way we know the species as it exists today with where we have a single brain and and in in natural formula to four append or whatever maybe that's going to be different but i think of that as an extension of humanity not the of humanity right that's the that's you know human two point o or n point o of the way we kinda think of the species right now so i'm i think things are still moving very very fast and this is the this is why i think humans have issues with exponential curves we're just not used to them when something is kinda doubling or you know every and months it's hard to wrap our brains around how fast this stuff you know can move things that we thought were like the things we have today sam if we had just described them to someone a year and a half ago there's like a well chat is cool whatever but it's never gonna be able to do that and now we're like those are like par for the course right like we we can be like things that word literally like there's no way no way it's like yeah it's good at like text and stuff like that but that's because it's been trained on text now it can do images well can do images but like video it's like thirty frames a second that's like third engineering thirty images per frame over like per second of video it's like all of it's like yeah but you diffusion models the way they work is because you're not gonna get you get a different image every time so how you gonna create a video because it requires the same character the same setting in subsequent frames that's not how the thing is arc that's not how image models were and we solved all of those things right now we have character cohesion setting cohesion video generational anyway so my answer is it's exactly not exactly but it's close to like yep this is what exponential advancement looks like i'm still of the belief that we're gonna have more net positive that is not to say that in the interim there's not going to be pain and there's two things i will put out there's cautionary cautionary words one is in the interim anyone that tells you that there's not going to be job based the location they're not gonna be roles that i get completely obliterated is lying to you that is going to happen it's already happening right it's that there's no world in which that does not occur that's kinda thing number one thing number two and we didn't talk about this what we should have is that because of the architecture of how l currently work maybe they'll figure out a way to do that they produce hallucinations and that's just a fancy way of saying it makes things up right and that's sorta okay but not okay because it doesn't know us making it up because of the way the architecture works it's like the intern that thinks it's been exposed to all there is to know in the world like i know all the things do you ask me a question i know i know all the things so i'm gonna tell you the thing that i know i was like well yeah but you didn't know this and you what you said is actually factual like prudent demons wrong and has as aptly zero lack of confidence in its output which is fine for some things if you're running a short you know fiction story or something like that it's not great at all for other things like health related to where you need kind of predictable accurate responses so i think we to be aware of the limitations around when we're doing research and things like that and the problem is when do we have relatively i'll say naive but i don't mean this in a discouraging way folks that are naive to a subject area asking chat for things where it can't judge the response right we're just sort taking it on faith that is chat ep and our mesh that it's got a phd and everything so of course it's gonna be right well no it's often not right right and it's kinda up to us to figure out what our kinda risk tolerances is it's like what is it okay for it to be wrong how would i test it for my domain for my particular use cases yeah so so you guys know this but i have a company called hampton join hampton dot com it's a vetted community for founders and ceos but we have this member named la von and la saw a bunch of members talking about the same problem with hampton which is that they spent hours manually moving data into a pdf it's tedious it's annoying and it's always waste of time and so la like any great entrepreneur he built a solution and that solution is called mo mo uses ai to automatically transfer data from any document into a pdf and so if you need to turn a supplier invoice into a customer quote or move info from an application into a contract you just put a file into mo and it auto fills the output pdf in seconds and a little backstory for all the tech out there built the entire web app without using a line of code he used something called bubble io o they've added ai tools i can generate an entire app from one prompt it's pretty amazing and it means you can build tools like mo very fast without knowing how to code and so if you're tired of copying and pasting between documents or paying people to do that for you check out mo dot a i m o l k u dot a alright back to the pod what do you think about this situation where z is throw in the bag at every researcher a hundred million dollar signing bonuses even more than that in in comp and he's poaching basically his own dream team he said like okay you're not gonna i can't acquire the company well why don't i go get all the players if you can keep the team i'll keep the players and he's going after them with these crazy nine figure offers a hundred million signing bonus in three hundred million over four years i think is what i saw is that true think that was like the higher yeah that's at the higher end and some people have said there's even like billion dollar offers to certain people that are out there this is like job offers so der like were you shocked by this because i mean my reaction to this was that's bullshit first i it then i was like wait the source is sam open why would he say that and then i was like okay that's insane and then a an hour later i was wait that's was actually genius because for a total of three billion or something he can acquire the equivalent of one of these labs that's valued at thirty forty fifty or two hundred billion dollars what a power play i know obviously your investor in open iso so you know maybe you don't like this maybe you have a different bias here but i'm just from one kind of like leader of a tech company to to another like what's your view of this move i think it's it's one of the crazier moves if i had to use one word i would say dia not stupid not silly but dia and here's why right this is the like in the grand scheme of things so this is not just a oh can we use this technology and build a better product that will then drive x billion dollars of revenue through whatever business model we happen to have there's a meta thing at play here that says whoever gets to this first we'll be able to produce companies with billions of dollars of revenue or whatever right because that's it's like kind of finding the the secrets the universe and the mystery of life kind of it's like okay well whoever wins that and gets there first will then be able to use a technology internally for a little while and be able just kinda run the table for as long as they want so there's it has got inca value right the upside is just so high that no amount of like if you can increase your probability even by a marginal amount if you had the cash why wouldn't you do it right so do you think hey do you think it'll work do you think this tactic will work for him do you think he will be able to build a super team is he could just gonna get a bunch of engineers who now have yachts and don't work like what's gonna happen when you give somebody hundred million dollars offers you put together this mashed together this team of i think he's got a hit list of fifty targets and i think like you know something like nineteen or twenty of them have come on board already yep what's your prediction of how this plays out it feels a little bit like a hail mary pass right that's okay they're gonna take this it's like okay well there's not a whole lot of things we can do you know the the chips are down i'm gonna make metaphor metaphors now too but but but that that works sometimes it works sometimes either exactly why people do other option do we have right like everything else hasn't work yet so let's try this thing but the i think the challenge still think it's a dial buckle smart move we're i'm not gonna use the word ethics or anything like that but here's the challenge though right if you if we were having this conversation we'll call it two years ago give or take open was so far ahead in terms of the underlying algorithm and this even before chat hit the kind of revenue curve that it's hit just just raw the cheap gp algorithm which is so good they were so far ahead it was actually inc incompatible for folks including me that others would catch up it's like okay well they'll make progress they'll get closer but the open eyes obviously gonna still keep working out and they're gonna be far ahead for a long long time that's proven not to be true right we've seen open source models come out we've seen other commercial models come out there's philanthropic out of and they have by most measures comparable large language models right within like one standard deviation they're they're pretty good and sometimes they're better at some things worse at others but it's not this single horse race anymore so the thing that i'm a little bit dubious of is that even if you did this you pull all these people together like it didn't really work for open ai in the true sense of the word right like they weren't able to create this kind of magical thing that it's like okay maybe they end up doing it you know somewhere else but i think there's more smart people out there the technology technology's is has caught up deep seek prove that you could actually and the they actually have an actual innovation in terms of reasoning models and things like that versus kind of the early generation your large language model so jury still out how much better is a three hundred million dollar over so a hundred million dollar a year engineer over like a twenty million dollar engineer is it like i i followed some of these guys on twitter and it was their fantastic follows and do you think that their iq is just so much better or is it because they've had experience is it really because they just saw how open ai works and they want that experience are they like is this like espionage what is how good could a hundred million or a three hundred million dollar a year engineer be well that's the thing so this is software right so this is a you know a world of like ninety five percent margins so let's say yeah i think part of the value is yes they're super smart but even high human iq it methodically moves towards a a certain ceiling right you take as smartest as people in the world however you wanna measure iq and so that doesn't explain away the value right that's not that it's not that they've seen the inside of open ai they have some trade secrets in their head that they can then kinda carry over so like oh here's how we did it over there and here's how we ran eval and here's how we did you know the engineering process they'll have some of that because we always carry some amount of kinda experience in our heads i think the larger thing i think kind of primary kind of vector of value is they sort of have demonstrated the ability to kinda see around corners and scene of the future right they believed in this thing that almost no one believe it at the time they sort of saw where it was headed and they were working at it tripping away at or whatever and that's much rarer than you would think for really smart people to do this stupidly foolish seemingly stupid foolish thing it's like you're gonna do what now right and we're still asking ourselves a variation of that question that we would have asked three years ago except now we have chad gp and we have the things in it and we're still like well you say that we're gonna have like these kind of digital teammates and they're gonna be able to do all these things and it can't even do this simple thing right like we you sort of right keep elevating our expectations and what we believe is or is not possible they sort of know what's possible and they almost think of what many of us would consider impossible is actually being inevitable have you guys as hubspot have you made any of these offers i don't think so but that's that's not the game we're in right so we're not we're not in that league we're not trying to build a frontier model we're not trying to then ag we're at the application layer of the stack so we wanna benefit from it right you know we didn't in any layer of my career i have not been the guy in the center of the universe sort of the company you're not you're not like oh man i met this person like we need to offer like an nba contract in order to secure this this guy no it and there's a reason for this right like for the kinds of problems we're solving what's the there's a sports trim about the best alternative to the player or something like that that replacement cost or wins above replacement is the metric they use in sports so yeah it's just not it's not worth it given our business model given what we do i have one last thing on the kinda of ai front does this is one of the things answering your question sean in terms of things i disagree with folks on is that there's you know group of people very smart that will say oh well ai is going to lead to a reduction in creativity broadly speaking right because you're just gonna have ai do the thing why do you need to learn to do the thing and i have a fourteen year old so it's like okay well if he just uses ai to write his essays and do his homework or whatever it's gonna kinda reduce this creativity and i understand that particular kinda line of reasoning that says yeah if you just have it do the thing you're not going to but i think the the part those folks are missing is that you know creativity is kinda in the literal sense of the word is like okay i have this the kind of thing idea in my head and i'm going to express it in some creative form be it music be it at art be it whatever happens to be and the problem right now is that whatever creative ideas we have in our head are limited in terms of how we can manifest them based on our emerging skill set so sean can have a song in his head right now that like he may be composing things that his head but until he learns the mechanics of how to actually play and instrument whatever the instrument happens to be there's no real way to manifest right we don't we kept tap to his brain and do that so in my mind ai actually increases its creativity because it will increase the percentage of ideas that people have in their heads that they will then be able to manifest regardless of what their skills are or or not and i i love that so my son he's a big japanese culture fan big manga fan and japanese comic in an anime and so he he's an aspiring you know author someday and what he can do now right and he's been able to do this for years which is so he's always had i again he likes fantasy fiction as well so he's had these ideas for writing things but he lacked the writing skills he doesn't know about character development but doesn't know about any of these things so what he uses chad four is he's got this like two thousand word prompt that describes his fictional world here the characters here's a power structure you're the powers people have here's what you can and can't do and then the way he tests the world as he turns into a role playing game it's like okay i'm gonna jump in the world now you ep i'm gonna do this tell me what happens oh this happened okay now i'm gonna do this okay well now you got this power like and so it will sort of kind of pressure test kinda of his world and so that's an expression of his creativity because the world was sitting in his head but now he can actually share out with friends maybe turn that into a book someday because it's gonna take the ideas that he has and hopefully in the meantime he will kinda develop some of those foundational skills but he's didn't have to wait until like twelve years of writing education before he can take this idea as a child he has lots of creativity but as a practitioner most of those things that he would love to be able to manifest in the world he has nothing close this goes required whether it's drawing or writing or anything so i think that's what ai can help us kinda elevate what and once again but we have to use it responsibly but it should be able to elevate our skills i wanna show you guys example of this real quick so i had this idea not long couple weeks ago of creating a game using only ai so if i don't know if you guys ever played the monkey island games from like when i was a kid i played monkey island i was a incredible game scott basically this guy wants to be a pirate it looks like there's very funny but like eight bit art style game and so i created a version of that called escape from silicon valley i didn't create the whole game by i create like the art but like check this out so so i go into i go into ai and i basically start creating the gay art and so it's like the story is basically like deep in san francisco the year is twenty forty eight the block is starting his third term in office you know nancy pelosi passes away the richest woman on earth and then you know elon is promising that self driving cars are coming really really soon for shit for real this time and here you are you're this character and you're in the open ai office and basically get look at that what's look at the charlie bar yeah yeah exactly i was i was putting in some references to like get us stuff that i thought was it would be cool that is so cool what did you use to make those images so that right there was just chat gp he became the journey mix i tried using you know scenario and a couple other like game specific tools like to do so like i created all these like technical characters so it's like i create z and palmer lucky and like cha and elizabeth jail awesome and i had it basically right scenes for the levels with me like write the dialogue with me create the character art dude that look sick why didn't you do that well because i did the fun part in the first two weeks so i was like oh good concept the levels the character art the music seeing what ai could do but then to actually make the game the ai can't do that and so i was like oh now i need to like i mean people build games and years building it's like oh this is like minimum six twelve months doing this like very very arbitrary project but i still love the idea and and like package up the whole the whole idea dark last question just really quick like you where do you hang out on the internet that we and the listener can hang out to stay on top of some of this stuff like are there like who's a reputable handful of people in twitter to follow or reputable websites or places to to hang out it that's interesting so i spend most of my time on youtube as it turns out and and i sort of given to the given to the vibes so to speak and let the algorithm sort of figure out what things i might enjoy it gets it right sometimes it gets it wrong sometimes as so it's a mix of things but the the the person that i think if you wanna kinda get deeper into like understanding ai there's a guy named andre ka auth i don't know if you've come across him just search for a ka auth dude do you don't wanna know how i know i i get so many ads it says like andre carp said this is the best product or andre carp showed me how to do this now i'm gonna show you like i don't even know who andre is other than ads run his name to promote him yeah i mean he's yeah what one of the to true og geez in in ai but he houses that his ortho skill or one of i think he's got like nine he's probably like a nine tool player of some sort but he's able to really simplify complicated things without making you feel stupid right so he's is he's not talking down to you he's like okay like here's how we're gonna do this we're gonna kinda build it brick by brick and and you're gonna understand at the end of this hour and a half how x works right and it's and and he's amazing so so so him any other youtubers or twitter people are blah on the business side actually like you aaron levy from box is actually very very thoughtful on the if you're in software in business and the ai implications there i think he's really good heath then shah who you both know now it dropbox through the acquisition has been on fire lately on linkedin so he's one i would i would go back especially the last like three four months and read all the stuff he's written i think he's on point the app so those are awesome darn thanks for coming on thanks for teaching us grown my favorite teachers and entertainer so thank you for for coming on men my pleasure it was a good to see you guys was fun likewise thank you that's it that's the pod i feel like got rude to know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a days off on a less travel never looking back alright my friends i have a new podcast for you guys to check out it's called content is profit and it's hosted by luis and ph ka after years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like red bull and orange theory fitness luis and ph are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue in each episode you're gonna hear from top entrepreneurs and creators and you're gonna hear him share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit so you can check out content is profit wherever you get your podcast