Story Of The Most Important Founder You've Never Heard Of

sam i think today we should talk about somebody who is one of the most important founders in the world one of those brilliant founders in the world that nobody talks about i feel like i could rule the world and know i could be what i want to from all in in like a days off on a road that's i don't even know how to say this guy's name properly and he is one of the most important tech founders in the world his name is a dennis has is he currently the guy who's like warning people is he on a like a podcast tour warning people no no no he he's pro ai so he's not warning people no that i don't know anything about him enlightenment okay so this guy is demi the menace is what i'm gonna call this guy because this guy is an absolute animal okay so so i watch this documentary called the thinking game it's on prime video if anybody wants to go watch it i'd heard good things from some smart people so i thought okay let me check it out and let me just first lay out my case for demi as billy of the week because he's kind of legendary okay so i didn't understand how much of a prodigy this guy was and this was a documentary that was like you know pretty straightforward but like this could have easily been a movie like the social network because the social network basically covered the most transformative young brilliant founder from the kind of two thousand four to two thousand ten era which is z and it talks about z in college and how he's this kid and you know all the ups and downs he goes through trying to build this thing demi is maybe that guy now him and sam alt they're both basically like two guys who are creating the most important technology of all time you think those are the two guys those are the guys well elon would be the other right so he wants the obvious other person that needs a movie and has a crazy life but this guy i think is the most you know underrated let let's talked about for who is okay so who is he he started this company called deep mind deep mind got bought by google and deep mind is basically google's ai play and the deep mind team which was basically a research team that was building ai is the reason that open ai exists it is the reason that chat exists it is the reason elon is interested in the ai was very much because elon met with demi and basically demi big dog him a little bit he was like oh yeah i'm working on the most important thing ever elon who's building rockets and electric cars he's like i'm saving the planet i'm going to space that's my portfolio and demi said well what we're building will be the most important invention humans will ever make it will be the last invention it's artificial general intelligence so a computer that can think and learn better than humans and the reason why this called the last invention is because once you invent an artificial general intelligence it's basically like its own little species so it's computers that can think and learn they will then do the thinking and learning and inventing far faster pace than we will so they'll invent all the new shade after that he has that conviction throughout the documentary and he's had it since he was a kid okay so the here's the here's the cool stories that's the you know the very basic setup but here's the story so he grows up he's got these like hippie parents his dad like as a musician and they look like very like he gets into chess and by the age of six he is one of the best chess players in the world he's uses all humans or is it yeah so first he wins the under eight championship when he's only six in in europe then and he is at one point he's ranked the second best chess player in the world for his age so he's like elite elite chess player as a young kid and he uses his chest he would go to the his parents are basically drive him to these chest tournaments he would win as this tiny he looks tiny even now he looks like baby face he looked like such a little kid when he's he's sitting there at these tables and he would basically go win prize money and then he used the prize when he'd to buy his computer okay so chess gets him a computer when he gets to computer he starts making games on the computer he builds a chess game builds out the little games and he starts a hacking club with friends at school and he's basically like wow computers and chess like this is my life if he had a a stereotype for a good movie character who's like y a james bot villain or a mega genius this is how they all start the story is on by the way he he tells the story of this incredible origin story so he goes my parents took me to this tournament of three hundred of best players in europe it was like on a mountain in a church and it shows the church and it shows three hundred you know hundred fifty chess tables lined up three hundred players are gonna be there and he's only i don't know he's eight years old or something at this point he's tiny and he's playing against the like the danish national champion a thirty year old man is playing against him hey describes it basically this the chest tournament was no timer so this turn this game with this thirty year old dude goes for ten plus hours and he's just playing them and he's like i'm pretty sure it's a draw but this guy's not con conceded that it's a draw so i just have to keep playing and he's this guy's just wearing out this little kid over hours and hours and hours they only have like five pieces on the on the board and it's just like a stalemate basically but he won't give it he won't say it's a stalemate and he just saw he describes how at the end basically this guy kinda like tricks them a little bit and he ends up losing when what should've have been a stalemate he makes one wrong move at the end and the guy laughs at stands up and laughs and set it says you know you should it should've have been a stalemate you should've have just done this and you would have it would have been a stalemate like rubs it in his face basically and he's so upset at this tournament and that this like kind of grown man humiliating him he looks around and he's just like what am i doing he's like that was a horrible experience and he goes if you take the three hundred people in this room the brain power in this room that we're just spending on this like you know a ten hour tournament here we can cure cancer and he's like forget chest i'm not going after chest anymore like i'm so done with chess after this bad experience i'm gonna go for computers i'm gonna try to figure out how to harness the brain power of humans and combine it with computers how do i get computers that could think and and the document is called thinking game because they interviewed him when he was like a six year old and they're like so why do you like a tv network was like why do you love chess so much and he goes it's just it's a good thinking game what a fun egg what a egg could you imagine boy played with him okay so listen to this from boy wonder so he gets into cambridge but he's too young to go so he has to wait a year to go to cambridge because he decides i'm gonna go to cambridge i'm gonna study ai he's like fourteen fifteen years old at this point and then his gap so he's like they need him to wait a year can't go till he's seventeen so he says okay why don't i try to get a job i'll work in the meantime and i'm not gonna do chess tournaments i'm gonna do something with computers and so this company called bull frog which made like the most popular computer games at the time in europe they're were the number one production company of games they held the contest and it was also cool to see like gaming was so new at the time the ceo of the gaming company was like did there was no recruiters we couldn't be like hey go get us the best game programmers there were no game programmers it wasn't even a job yet and it just reminded me of like what the frontiers always look like it's like little signals of you're in the right spot is when there's not even recruiters for the thing there's no agencies yet for the thing there's no name for the job and for context by the way he's fifty years old now he's forty nine so we're talking to eight late eighties right yeah yeah a long time ago hey i got something pretty cool to share with you guys so if you're like me you listen to podcast podcasts or youtube videos and you like to take notes you're here to learn and that's a lot of effort sometimes you're on the go and you can't do it and so the folks at hubspot who are sponsoring the podcast done something pretty cool for you they have created the m vault it's a place to go find notes and resources that they pull from the different episodes that we do so if we have a guest on that shares their five point framework they write down those five points with the examples that the guest game and they put the notes there for you so if you want to access the vault it's totally free all you gotta do is click the link in the description below and you can access all the notes and the stuff in the vault we're gonna keep adding to this trying to make it better over time thank you to hubspot this is a very cool way for them to sponsor the podcast but by instead of telling you to go buy their stuff they're actually giving you something instead so he enters this contest he wins and he gets a job there and the first game he works on is the did you ever play roller coaster ty in of course yeah so he was built they europe had the equipment called theme park and he built theme park with this guy who became a smash hit when he's sixteen years old and his job in theme park he was to not building the the park builder but the guest the guest logic so ai basically it's like you're gonna have a thousand guests walking around but they need to do sensible things like a thousand sim characters like decided to go in a ride got it yeah that are going into your theme park so he he's like and and so they were like just make him walk around in a random path but he's like no no this is ai i wanna work on ai so he goes he makes it so that if you make the roller coaster too crazy they'll p bet in the odds of them p can go up if there's a burger joint next to the theme next to the roller coaster and so he creates all this logic that was not in games at the time like this like very intelligent logic around the autonomous characters in this game and even the people they were like dude why do you care so much about this and he says at the time he's there's a line in the movie where he goes today the whole world agrees was something that i knew twenty twenty plus years ago that ai is the most important technology that we're ever gonna build and that that was the only thing that was worth working on so even at the game companies working on ai okay so he gets he's now seventeen he can go to cambridge the guy who owns the company offers them a million pounds to stay and he's like i'm four kid i'm seventeen years old he offers me a million pounds so more than a million dollars this is back in the life so it's eight million eight eight million usd yeah we're get a huge job for just to stay and he's like no i wanna go i wanna build the eye so he turns it down and he stays broke and he goes to college and basically you know meets this other guy the only other guy he knew that was equally obsessed with ai and neuroscience and like how the mind works and then teaching computers to think like a human mind and so he he thought you're gonna say that he like party hard and he did actually he's i hooked up a tons of girls he's like we would drink beers and we would play fu wall and we would talk ai he's a we crazy like that okay so then he he decides at some point that he's going to start this company and now nobody really believes in an ai at the time in fact in the scientific community ai was not a thing because it's not science really there's no like test hypotheses that you could go do you couldn't go into a lab and and do ai the entrepreneurship community also didn't really respect ai it's the sci f topic no there's been no commercial companies doing this so he's there's nobody who believes in this well guess who believes when nobody believes guess who loves the good old contra bet teal teal backs if teal becomes the first back of deep mind are you kidding no so how how legendary is peter t that he's the origin i i think that people talk about this but i don't think it talks about enough where i think tim dylan a comedian where he was like everyone thinks the president of the united states is like most powerful but there's one person who's never around you can't see him but he truly runs everything and that's peter t and he was saying let like at trump's inauguration it was like j vance who's a a teal guy was all the ceos teal guy teal guy z teal guy you know and there was like peter till is the guy and then i recently read a whole bunch of old quotes from him and it's just like everything he says is timeless and has been true so often it's he's like a city dude he's like a place that people are from it's very strange oh yeah z grew up and teal oh yeah like oh ethereum you like that well he got grew up and teal oh yeah yeah that that's true too it's interesting elon musk yep he actually first company merged with peter t company and peter teal was the ceo so a lot of times it starts with them i with it was it plato or socrates where like it like well socrates top plato plato talk alex alexander the great and also aristotle it it's sort of like there's like this one person that's like the the lineage yeah it's very strange so teal becomes the back the second back i think the second significant back was elon musk so teal tells elon about this elon meets demi demi says that that big dog line basically like i'm working on the most important thing in the world elon you know it's like wait a minute what's going on here he ends up funding this okay so he gets a little bit of funding from some some crazy believers and now the part of the movie that i think is just incredible is showing them building this monster that is ai so when they're when you say build is their actual physical building as well so so what they would show no so at at the time it's them on a whiteboard with really complicated math equations talking about well what if we took this technique from deep learning and we merged it with this this technique over here about neural nets and like you know what if we could get something new and that's what they did is they they could q star plus deeper learning they combine these two different ways of learning don't ask me what any of those words mean but the thing they show is a little tv screen with the atari game of pong and so it's so funny that this whole thing starts with pong and it starts at games and so much like the the most brilliant people in the world staring at this atari game trying to be like how can we teach the computer to play this game and he talks about like because he grew up on chess and he was super competitive and the games were how he learned to think he's like maybe games will be how the computer learns to think because games have rules they have rewards they have like clear definite that you can have a a a board where you can see all the information and you could do it a bunch of times and get better and better and better better at you can roll a lot of simulations very quickly so the rate of learning just how he basically was like the way kids learn is games so baby that's the way we can build a child like computer program to also learn and i think one of his breakthroughs was like when they played the asian game right chuck go so before that it starts with pong i didn't actually know this and they they basically said look don't tell it anything about pong just tell it one thing score go up is good so at the beginning they show it and they're all watching it they're all just like sitting there watching and the the computer hits it like the game hits it and then their ai player like doesn't even move its paddle it's like down one next time it like moves this paddle the wrong way we're down two next time it moves this paddle the wrong way almost recovers what misses it down three and then it hits the ball once and they're all like but then it still loses the point and they basically oh you know it starts out terrible by a hundred games it's competitive by two hundred games it's like as good as the best humans at playing the game and by five hundred games it's never losing a point they're like okay that was remarkable let's carry on and so they had this first objective which is let's without telling it because again the cult the goal was he goes what is ag it's it can think and it can learn so we can't just tell that the rules we can't just tell it how to win we can't give it strategy and then it execute it no no it has to figure it out itself like a kid learning how to walk and it stumbles and it starts to figure out oh if i put my center of mass here that's how i walk so they wouldn't tell it anything about the game except for whoever has a higher score at the end that's a good thing go for it computer and so they would and then they they had it learn like fifty games so then the next one was like brick breaker if you ever played that game on blackberry where it's like breaking breaks then and it says the same thing hundred games terrible two hundred games it's pretty good as good as most humans five hundred games it's unstoppable and it figured out this strategy and break breaker where you tunnel in through the sides and then the the ball will just keep bouncing on the top and break all the bricks on its own without having to hit you and it's like okay that's cool next let's do chess so that they show it doing chess and the one of the kinda of like the first aha moments was it started to invent its own strategy a little bit but just a little bit like oh it's got its own style okay that's kind of interesting it's got its own little attacking style that's pretty cool it beats stock fish which is the best chess program out there and they're like well that's good because stock fish beats all the pros if this beats stock i means it's the best at chess and then they went to go and so go i didn't entirely understand what it almost looks like chinese checkers but it sounds like it's more complicated and they claim that it's the most complicated game on earth because it has the most perm limitations on how you could possibly win or lose right there are more board configurations and go than there are atoms in the universe so you can't like just think it through you know there's too many combinations so you have to be actually fluid that in any situation you're in be able to figure out the right move so people had always thought go as too hard no computers had ever beaten go before and so they start and they this is called they created this program called alphago so alphago based at what they did which was this is kinda nerdy but i i liked hearing how they did it actually they gave it a thousand or a thousand or a hundred thousand games from strong amateur players said here's a hundred thousand games learn from this past game so they game like like the the play by play yeah like the move by move thing and he learns all that and then it said cool based on what you learn now play yourself so based on what you know you play yourself see if you can get better and it played itself like a million times okay so that's kinda interesting maybe that'll get a new result so they go to korea for this test they're like we're gonna go play this guy lisa dole and lisa dole is you know a grand master go player he's one of the best players of the past you know two decades he's the man and they show them like getting off the plane and there's like hundreds of photographers taking pictures like today the computer versus man man versus machine and like i didn't actually see any of this when this is happening i don't know if you did either but like again in the small corner of the year this story is as old as john henry you remember john henry who is like you know the strongest man the strongest man who was did you use the jack hammer through the mountain trying to race the the new steam engine who can like pile through that and if he works and he trying to beat the steam engine and he works so hard that his hard explodes and it's like and that's like the stories the the legend so is basically what happens except the guy's mind bloated yeah so that's this like story is perfect so they sit down and the game is going as usual and the they they have a line from eric schmidt so eric schmidt is from google he was the former ceo of google and a super technical guy and he google had bought deep mind at this point dude i saw the price one of the greatest deals of all time potentially so they bought it for i four hundred million pounds so it was like you know five hundred something million dollars and there's a great line from demi this i don't know if you saw this part where they're like his investors didn't wanna sell and he goes he sent this line that i really like it was kind of a frame breaker for me i don't i don't think most people when they listen to this line would even think twice about it but for me it was a little bit of frame he was basically in like a friend he's like this is so important there's so much to do my life is only so long i wanna see this happen and he's like we have so much to do if we can just get this funding and be left alone to go do what we needed to do then i might actually get to see this thing in my lifetime and that's what matters and he's like what's a few billion dollars for five years extra of my life getting to work on this he was like would you trade a few billion dollars he's he goes i could sell for a few extra more billion and make a billion dollars but let me ask you something if you're gonna die would you spend billions of dollars to live in additional five years of course you would that's what he said he was gonna do here is such a good lie i i actually someone changed my perspective on having children and someone of was like do you think you're gonna love your kids when they're born i was like yeah he's like well then why wouldn't don't you have him sooner so you have a additional like life with them time with them he has another line later that's kinda like this he goes he was talking about like won't what a new breakthrough that they were gonna have and he's like it's gonna both be the most exciting thing ever how will we get sleep i won't be able to sleep and he was just like that fired up ten years into the mission and so i just thought like when people talk about mission driven this is what they mean when the guys like there's so much to do i don't know if it'll happen in my lifetime the most exciting thing in my life is if this happens while i'm still alive i will do everything in my power to make this happen while i'm still alive and i thought that that was just like a next level of mission driven excitement i wanna read you a cool quote okay so i'm reading this book can you see this it sounds silly but hear me out the quick and easy way way to effective speaking by dale carnegie oh very cool so dale carnegie you know wrote famously wrote hud to win friends and influence people he was actually more famous originally because he created the dale carnegie speaking program and so they have locations all over the country and hundreds of thousands people went through his his programs including warren buffett who says it was the most important class he ever took and he had the diploma from the speaking class on his wall next to his office not his college speaking diploma and he even taught he was dale carnegie instructor and there's this amazing quote and so basically dale carnegie one of his premises is that public speaking he calls it the the royal road to self confidence he says if you wanna be a more confident person you should actually learn how to public speak but when you control the minds of of many men you control yourself you know it makes you more confident and one of his axiom or whatever for how you get better is you have to envision the end goal and he has this amazing quote from william james where it's like it's like the godfather of like modern psychology and there's amazing quote william james he says in almost any subject your passion for the subject will save you if you care enough for a result you will most certainly attain it if you wish to be good you will be good if you wish to be rich you will be rich if you wish to be learned you will be learned only then you must really wish these things and wish them with exclusive and not wish one hundred other incompatible things just as strongly and his point being is whatever you truly want if you want it bad enough your passion will carry you enough to acquire all the skills and have the determination to see it through the end and i was gonna i wrote this down that this guy you see it from the beginning and where he is now this quote applies to him that's great today's episode is brought to you by hubspot did you know that most businesses only use twenty percent of their data that's like reading a book but then tearing out four fifth of the pages point is you miss a lot and unless you're using hubspot the customer platform that gives you access to the data you need to grow your business the insights that are trapped emails call logs transcripts all that unstructured data makes all the difference because when you know more you grow more and so if you wanna read the whole book instead of just reading part of it visit hubspot dot com okay a little segue have you ever seen the tony robbins ted talk he gave maybe yeah pop publicly have seen many talks so tony's normal talk is like a seminar is like a four day twelve hours a day on stage things so ted talk is eighteen minutes so he gets on stage he's like alright like i usually talk for twelve hours a time let's see what i can do at eighteen minutes and he gets to his point in the talking he's like what stops us from getting what we want and then people are like i i don't he goes i don't have the and people are like time he's like yeah alright time i don't have the money i don't have the skills i don't have the network i don't have he writes all these resources that you locked down and then one guy in the crowd goes i didn't have the supreme court justices and he looks through the darkness he's like who said that and were yeah a was a gore who had just lost the presidential election in i remember when florida there was a recount and the justice he was like too justice the short or something like that and everybody has a big laugh and then tony says he goes you know i don't think that's why you lost because i saw you yesterday on this ted stage talking about climate change you gore is like super passionate about climate change he was like one of the big advocates for climate change and he goes if you had if you had talk like that in your presidential debates you'd have never needed that's the supreme court justices you were on fire yesterday i didn't see that when you were debating bush and he basically says he goes the only resource you need is resourceful he goes because look if you're just like you said if you're just lit on fire to do something you just ask yourself the following question like if i'm determined enough if i'm charismatic enough if i'm charming enough if i'm playful enough i'm creative enough if i am like motivated enough i'm persistent can i not achieve anything i want can i not overcome all those things that i lacked it's like of course like you didn't have the resources you didn't have the money well but if you're determined and you're charming and you're persuasive you'll go get the funding you it's like this master skill that's underneath so i finally my i i often i actually catch myself doing this all the time where i feel like i lacked something and i'll literally go say that almost like an like an affirmation like well if i'm playful enough and i'm determined enough and i'm charismatic enough and i'm persuasive enough and i'm determined enough like can i not can i get this thing i want of course i can like oh they're closed i could probably get them to open oh this guy said no i could probably get him to say yes right and then like each one of those things that's like just like this universal skill we all have if you remind yourself that's a pretty bad ass and don't even think you need to be charming charming this guy demi he he was pretty black and white but when i listen to him i'm like you're unstoppable force you're you care about this so much he is what program calls a fierce nerd i think that fierce nerd essay is actually hall of fame level for program and you see it when you see something like dennis and how competitive he is with fo ball and chess and then he's also that way with trying to win the like protein folding problem right back to the story so they're sitting there with the best korean go player in the world lisa it all and there's this move move thirty seven and i think if they write the book of humanity or the movie of humanity move thirty seven is like the moment it's like the moment in movies where you know in a rom comments it's when the guy bumps to the girl she drops her papers on the ground then they pick them up and who they look each other in the eyes it's like the spark this is the spark of like where ai really took off and it's move thirty seven so basically they're playing lisa all the expectation is least all will win because goes is so hard and he's the best but we'll put up a good showing will be as good as the best players against l all and in move thirty seven the computer does something and right away the announcer are like oh my oh what is that and lisa said all you can literally they show him like sweating and thinking and he's like what the hell just happened they go and they go i think we might have just seen an original move by alphago and lisa all is like just he doesn't know what to do he's like really perplexed by this way they go no human would have made that earth and it was the first time that it wasn't just pattern matching what like let's mimic what it what a human would do or say but less good than a human would say or do it or maybe it it's a little bit faster because it's computer but it's still doing what a human would the first time it was like that was novel that was a creative breakthrough and it beats lisa a doll it's like when the like in a horror movie like the robot turns who says i'm in charge now like this is that moment exactly and so i i'd never actually seen the clip and the way the movie shows it i think is wonderful so then right afterwards was eric schmidt like holy shit and he goes to demos and he goes what's the next where does this stand and he goes when we beat the chinese guy i didn't even know about this part it's like then there was a chinese guy who was the actual number one ranked player in the world they go to china to play this guy and now it's like well what's gonna happen this computer just beat listed is it can it beat the chinese guy and i just love that they even called it the chinese guy was like the most relatable thing that this absolute super genius with like an ten thousand iq said i was like oh he's just like me he just speed with just called the chinese guy like that that was cool and so they go when they play had you ever heard about this no so i just if you go youtube you have move thirty seven there's videos with hundreds of thousands and millions of views and it's all like for example re telling the story of move thirty seven or there's magnus carlson talking about like how move thirty seven teaches you about x y z like it's become like an acronym on or like an analogy for like you know when this find mile right yeah exactly it's like exactly what is what it is a four minute mile like it's just a phrase it doesn't even mean move thirty seven anymore it's don't from beyond that totally totally i see your little public speaking brand is picking up on all these little you know magic the magic of of tiny words thanks dale thanks thanks to our guest i'd idea accordingly thank you okay so then it goes to they played chinese here's be crazy thing about playing the chinese guy alpha goes whoop ass and it's like putting the pressure on the number is teddy just smoking sick while he's doing this because that's why he's actually a pretty young looking guy but the crazy thing is as he starts to put the pressure on the chinese guy they cut the feed in china no way this is that they cut the feet of the broadcast like no we will not sure we will not lose face like this and they call that in the movie they're like this is like the sp nick moment where china was like wake up call we're getting into ai and so this actually triggered the ai race for why china got so into it and how they cut the feed so dramatic i thought that was incredible that's crazy okay awesome okay so then they go they continue with the games so those fast where they do star craft next which star graphs interesting just from a why why star craft because both players are playing at the same time it's not turned by turn like you go star traffic fighting didn't i don't know what it is yeah i think it's called like a a mob or whatever it's like basically a game where you you know you have a map you have character you like grand build a bit but you have a base they have a base you gotta attack their base with characters you gotta move them around the map there's a fog of war the whole map is not revealed both players are playing simultaneous so now it's even harder you're you're acting like you don't know what you're talking about like i don't play that but anyways so there's this big character here's what he does i don't play star but you know i've been around enough do to know alright so it doesn't actually beat the best aircraft player in the world that guy wins okay but it was a good good showing anyways then i think what's what's just what's the next step what's the next step that really stood at to me there's this one last part about protein folding so are you are you familiar with what they've been doing with this all i know is that no one had ever solved it and basically within days or weeks or something like that they solved something that took fifty years to get up to that point in prior actually it took years which is cool i didn't actually realize this so so demi is basically talking about they're like alright we did good in games but he's like before ag he's like he's basically like ai assisted science is gonna be the thing and i don't think this gets talked about very much nowadays like maybe a pilot like maybe ai could cure cancer but this guy seriously like no i should cure cancer yeah not clear how math can or math or that type of like how chat gp cures cancer it's like that that link seems very why do you need more data and more effort like like it's it's it's as if like in order to cure cancer you're just like let's throw the fifty drug at them all that one kinda of worked let's like soup up the drug and throw it right five fifty more time you know that's sort of how in your head you think cure cancer not like any you math your way out of it correct now what i've realized in watching this and hang out with ai people is one of the most important things in the world is basically prediction so i remember i invest in this guy who was self driving car entrepreneur he had worked at at the uber self driving car team and he took me to this little garage and he had this like golf cart that he's in line in two thousand nineteen or eighteen right this was prep pandemic before that maybe yeah never maybe i don't know that was spelled probably the time yeah right before start by phone so twenty eighteen twenty nineteen you're right and he drove me around in a self driving golf cart in a self storage facility so it's like you a peek of the future like whoa that was amazing this is you know before tesla had it whatever but like know it wasn't perfect it could only do in a very controlled you know environment but he basically said like look everybody's working on this nose there's these like four or five steps of self driving and i didn't i don't remember all of but one was like predict you know so it's basically like vision so you gotta see the world then based on what you see the next step is prediction so okay i saw that that car was right there where will it be in two seconds i need to predict where it's gonna be that's the whole like basis of self driving is planning prediction there's like an action step or whatever this is like five steps so that that kind of planning and prediction step is the key to how ai affects all these industries so chat gp is planning and prediction of what is the next token or let's use word what's the next word that would probably go in this sentence you know the roses are red i think it's gonna be red because i've seen roses are red so many times that my my prediction score very confidently would say the next word in the roses are is red okay great how do self driving cars work same thing if i see a car there my prediction is it's gonna be here in the next one second so therefore i need to do a new action the same thing applies to science and curing all these diseases which is you need to know what a protein structure looks like based on the shape of the protein structure you can then if you can predict the protein structure then it's not so hard to figure out what should you attach to it to either like destroy that protein or soup it up and make it more strong or whatever right you know where to bind on the protein okay so i didn't know about this thing but this called cap so ka is this competition they've been going on for years and it's basically the olympics of protein folding so if you do like a a sequence you're like amino acids it's always got this amino acid this amino acid this amino you get this ten amino acids cool you know what's in it you don't know what it looks like okay you don't know the the structure how it's folded up into this like little tiny knot a very unique structure when you say folding figure out the shape of the knot the shape of it and you need to know the shape in order for what to design a drug that's gonna do anything to it so you could who could kill it or grow it or shrink it like imagine i said hey you're gonna park this car at this address cool but if you don't know what the garage looks like you're just gonna smash into the house right like you might know the location of it but you don't know where to park the car so how do you park the drug that's gonna attack this that's gonna either kill it or enhance it you need to know with the shape of it so the way they do is one by one so they so they create this competition to be like can anyone use computers to predict the protein folding because doing this manually is un and for years if you look at the graph it was like you know like kind of this like twenty percent thirty percent prediction accuracy for like a decade so demi decides he's like this is what we're gonna do we're gonna throw our resources behind this and the first time they do it they win the competition but they're like great we're trying to go to the moon and we just have like the tallest ladder like the ladder doesn't get you to the better and so they're were actually incredibly disappointed and he's like this was like a bitter taste of we really tried we won but not by enough to even solve the protein like we're here to solve the protein folding problem not win the competition and to solve it you need ninety percent plus accuracy and he describes this like the next year where they basically like so we went back to the drawing board try to come up with new ideas and he i thought it was a cool ceo moment so he was like i know when you need to come up with a creative idea you can't force it like squeezing it doesn't make creativity come out when you just push the team we need an answer now like that's not gonna get the best interesting because that's the opposite of what i would think and there have been people who would say constraints are the answer so they used constraints but what they didn't do was basically like put everybody into fight flight mode because when you're in fight for it's kinda like why your best ideas come to you when you're in the shower or when you're relax or when you when you're sleep or mean when you're on a walk because the brain like you have two modes one is executive mode where you're doing tasks and that's good at doing tasks but it's not good at making new connections between existing fuzzy data dude that's so interesting because this is how henry ford so henry ford one of the thing basically there's an engine block so it's a block of of metal and you put cylinders in there and that's how a car combustible works but before that was one block it used to be two blocks and it kept breaking i imagine two blocks and screwed things together and it it was he was holding them back from taking over the world henry ford got a team of four engineers of the company of thousands of people and he goes he the story is that he brought to a small office he goes this is you guys workshop and they're like what are we doing he's like you see that big ass block of metal to figure how to put four holes in there in four four four pistons and make it work and they're like henry sir that's impossible he goes i'll see you guys at a quarter and apparently the story is is that he went back like eight quarters in a row so it's was something like two years and then finally they got it but it took two years but he did allow them this is four of you this is your job just figured out and let me know exactly and this is also how if you read about like steve jobs with the he was like no keyboard on the phone and they're were like but the blackberry you keyboard like you get write emails it's like no keyboard on the phone and they're like but how would we the accuracy this i mean screens today don't he's like no keyboard on the phone and so then they had to go invent multi touch and figure it out so he gave them the constraint the you gotta do it in this these are the constraints but then i give you the time to go explore and figure out like which path might work that's interesting and they they also did this with the game thing by the way when they did the go thing the first one was again train on a hundred thousand games then they created alpha zero where they said now try to make it win with no prior human knowledge because he's like if we're ever gonna do new novel things you gotta assume we were not gonna have a database of a hundred thousand good humans at doing this to use and so they did they created alpha zero which could win in chess and go with just by playing itself like ten million times or whatever it figured it out and so similarly here they're were like you gotta go back the drum and he described he goes first i'm gonna give them the constraint second i'm gonna let them be creative and try to go go to the drawing board figure out multiple different possible ways this might work he goes and then when they pick one he goes i know this is when it's time to push it goes because first we will get worse than we were before then after some time we'll pick an approach and we'll get right back close to where we were before it goes and that's when it's time to push i've seen it so many times before and we'll explode through and i was like that's pretty dope how he kind of had developed judgment on the scientific process in the creative process and enough to know when do you push and when do you not push dude that's so great we're learning all these techniques and i'm putting it all together her mo had this cool thing that he said when i talked to him once he was like basically i've noticed that when you start something new the results go down twenty percent right off the bat so if you're trending your sales team on something new their conversion rate is actually gonna drop from fifty percent down to you know o drop twenty twenty percent so down ten points but eventually it will go up if you pick the right thing and so the question is basically make sure you pick the right thing because if it's gonna go down twenty percent that means you need it to double it it's improvement in order for it to be worth it so you picked the right thing otherwise you're just back to square one and you went down twenty percent for a a quarter right and so knowing that these j curve progress things exist is important because the amateur would panic the amateur would not go forward was actually my biggest learning this year running a company was like expect new things to suck or bring down bring everything down therefore make your project selection perfect or right or high high quality right and so he anyways they end up crushing the thing and they they show kind of like how they did it they end up getting ninety percent prediction accuracy and they basically solve the single protein folding question now there's also like multi protein and there's like variations so there's like all these other now now they moved on to harder things but it's pretty crazy that the the line graph was like yeah twenty thirty percent twenty three percent and then went to ninety in one year when they like went back to the drawing board and figured it out and how is static they were there they're like yeah this this just changed the world people don't realize this yet but this just changed the world and it's reminded me of your inflection thing which you should say what what what is your describe your inflection thing for entrepreneur i think it's one of the best like axiom or principles you have on entrepreneurship yeah basically and and and i i didn't invent this i think it was maple mike maple i i think i don't remember exactly but basically the idea is that in order for a lot of like big breakthrough ideas to truly happen not like small businesses that make tens of millions of dollars but like culture changing companies you basically have to have inflection and so there's a handful of inflection that matter there can be regulatory inflection so during covid better help and all these telemedicine things existed because we change the rules on who who doctors can serve it could be cultural inflection so like the me too movement that changed of a bunch of stuff or it could be why does uber exist well there was a technology technology inflection everyone now had a a cell phone that had gps on their phone therefore they could call an uber wherever they they were and there's about five or six different categories of inflection and you have to spot the inflection to know what's actually worth like going after because that you needed an inflection in order for a right culture changing company to exist and so i think this i think this alpha fold stuff where figuring out the protein folding is is a massive inflection and i didn't really know what the businesses were around this but i kinda like googled google afterwards i'll you know i was to cro and asking it about this so this a pretty cool companies i didn't realize first of all google has their own company they spun out from this so iso warfare glass so basically google has spun out this company that is basically trying to cure all disease that's the mission no big deal and their thought process is like well with ai we can you know from first change the way that drug development and discovery works because if we can predict how the proteins fold then we can have a way higher hit rate on the targets we design with the drugs then we should be able to simulate if it's gonna work with it before we even get to clinical trials we should be able to run you know that hundreds of thousands of simulations to see how effective this is could be get the probability of success higher so that when we enter a trial we have a way higher hit rate and this company by the way their first round of funding was six hundred million dollars to as they spun out of google and deep mind and demi is the ceo i think of iso morph labs and so you know there's there's a world where google becomes the drug company that you know cures like right now they're working on malaria and like these different things he's the ceo of deep mud as well yeah oh the h one on iso morph labs dot com the headline is solve all disease we're entering a new era of drug discovery one where the frontier of ai can unlock deeper insights faster breakthroughs and life changing medicines if i was doing a ce episode right now iso morph labs would be one of those i'd be like go go be p person there go go be a junior account manager there yeah does the cafeteria workers yeah yeah you guys he'll be able to show up and you say hey i i'm am the best coffee bring to your desk ever give me a job here i will find ways to be useful every single day whether it's in any job you have i need to be at this company because i i can't i can't think of a you know how many companies have a more noble mission but actually a shot of cracking it because there's a new tech vector to to go chase so i how does the the the documentary like where where does he leave it the end is weird because it's actually like the begin they're still in the beginning stages of what they're doing right so it's like they end the documentary but it's like the ai stuff is just starting to work so they end it with after the alpha fold thing people like all these sign like it was a big thing in the science community and so all these researchers and drug companies are like hey can we get access this because if we know protein structures this will be tremendously helpful so they're like should set up like a service where you can request a protein and then we tell you how it's folded and then blah blah blah and then dennis was like can we just fold all the proteins and they're like what and he's like how long would it take to fold all proteins known in existence and they're like i don't get it in like two months say with why don't we do that let's fold them and give it all the way and he's like let's just make it open for anybody let's go run the computer fold all the proteins give it all the way and so that's what they did at the end they folded two hundred million plus basically every known protein in existence and they made it available and the end is basically like researchers from around the world showing up on their google analytics like logging in doug we have a hundred thousand concurrent users we have you know through they now have three million users and that's everyone from like someone in africa running you know a small lab to universities to eli lilly who are all using them to to to be smarter and better about how they do you know medicine dude how are all the guys who work at iso morph labs and deep mine and denim how are they all not like tate looking dudes like the most tan like a jack dudes ever because like if you can cure taking peptides if you can cure all disease like how are they not like the hottest people on earth i think the way you become that smart as you don't care about stuff like that yeah right like no you become that smart because you were bullied but now oh you're getting sick you're gonna seek revenge and the the issue with bullying going away is that none of these nerds are gonna exist you know right it's like i know we're getting close with demi is six for and like you know has visible whole lats yeah why does he not look like adonis that's my question i think when larry i don't pay attention to the news too much but when larry ellis and masa son and trump and alt did this thing but it was like you know you a hundred trillion dollars or something like ludicrous number they it was under the premise of like this is gonna cure disease and larry olsen i do know that larry nelson's in his eighties i think or close or period larry close too and he's looking great and his wife like is like a thirty year old but for some reason they don't look like that much of a different age even though there is literally a fifty year difference and it was under the premise of like we you know larry is interested in solving death and therefore we must do that whenever i hear that i just think that's just words that are meaningless but now that i know a little bit more about the topic just from you now is that actually a legitimate thing well i'm glad you're asking me because it's a prem med student at the time i'm clearly expert of there not it's hard to know exactly a great one class on this fifteen years ago yeah that's what you gotta see in physics had to repeat had to repeat in the summer it's like on instagram when people report like you see like instagram videos of people with their children and like the kids like on an ipad or screaming and someone's was like well as a mother i could never it's like dude you mean as a human like i don't care okay you don't going as a mother does not mean that you're right shots fired but mom not special yeah as a as a father like brother i everyone's a father okay i don't care there's a line where they're talking to like one of the og of artificial intelligence and they were saying like you know what are your predictions and he goes it's hard to predict what's gonna happen as we make this intelligence into super intelligence he goes it's like asking a gorilla to explain einstein's theory of relativity and when i heard that i go oh yeah we're we're they're gonna be we're gonna be the gorilla out of this whole thing right because clearly if you're making intelligence is smarter than any human you're creating you know the next race it's like to an animal they if they just saw human at first they be like yeah looks kinda skinny they got a little funny little extra append on their hand you know alright cool they they they woke up right cool but they're pretty slow actually and then you're like fast forward you know two hundred years and you know you see the blue angels flying above you two hundred ears yeah i don't know just sense of time thousand years of you i don't know speaking of gorillas we are a few brain cells away from gorillas but just like what humans have done is kind of incomprehensible to any to our closest animal you know relative that's what's gonna happen here which i think is pretty crazy alright let's take a quick break because i gotta tell you story let me tell you the first time i try to run payroll for my team i was using a traditional bank and you know the type it's got a jan interface it's built like a two thousand and two tax form and it was open only during business hours and i hit send ne froze they flagged the transaction they lock my account they put me on hold for forty five minutes and then they told me i gotta visit my local branch and that was the day i started looking for a new banking solution after asking a few founders what they were using i found out about mercury and so now my payroll is two clicks i can wire money i could pay invoices i can reimburse the team all from one clean dashboard that's why i use it for all of my companies and so do two hundred thousand other startup founders and so if you're looking to level up your banking head to mercury dot com and apply in minutes mercury is a financial technology company not a bank bank the services will provide choice financial group call man a and evolve bank trust members fdic i don't know if he was in mark manson he's he's the man basically he broke this he did a podcast i think it was his second most recent one it's about it's a q and a maybe finding your purpose failing better in the ai future so that was it was basically like an end of the year q and a which we actually did as well and he tells a story about how he built an ai product recently and so someone asked him what do you think about the future of ai he was like i just built an ai product and what i i realized a few things one ai is amazing in that it's better than ninety five percent of people at certain things but the vast majority of value created by a in in the world is created by people who are ninety nine point nine percent better at people than human things like you still need these experts and ai can be great but it's not an expert but then he also said you know there's maximal who think that ai is gonna come really soon to take over the world and we're all gonna be worthless and there's other people who think that you know it might happen over many decades but we're probably gonna be and he was like i tend to be in that category and the reason being is that when a lot of people think about ai they think that it's just gonna take all of our jobs and we're not gonna work anymore but human desire is not fixed and when you're thinking about ai oftentimes people think desire is fixed meaning once you hurt hit a certain level of productivity you will not do stuff and he's like that's just false for example if we look at the industrial revolution people said the same thing when certain stuff start happening and then you look at like the victorian area where we started getting electricity things like that people made the same claim of we're not gonna work again we need universal income and all this stuff and he's like humans just always want more and because of that i don't think that there's ever gonna be a point where we are useless it's just gonna be different and i thought that was a really great perspective on it and that's one of the first times i've heard a perspective on it other than maybe der talking about it where i felt calmer where i was like we're just gonna desires is not fixed we will evolve yeah it's interesting i don't know have you read this there's this book haven't read it yet but it's called if anyone builds it everyone dies i don't think i'm gonna be reading that one yeah yeah i mean it's a crazy documentary and i think you know one my meta takeaway is i love that they were filming this the whole time i'm glad that smartphones and video and these video platforms are so popular now that because imagine ten years from now i think we're gonna have ten times the number of like documentary behind the scenes building a type of things right now it feels like a fluke when this happens for example we did a podcast about the kanye documentary and the craziest thing about the kanye documentary is not about kanye it's about the guy who just decided you know what i'm gonna just film this young guy in chicago over a ten year period because i think he's got something here which is like one of the greatest calls ever you know before kanye kanye this guy started filming and i think we were lucky that that ever happened that's like a a lottery ticket level win for society that that that that guy just decided to film this religiously when there was no reason to believe that that he should do that conor mcgregor did this on his way up and he's like i'm gonna be the best you know like yeah a plumber now and there's never been an irish champion but i'm gonna do it and he basically started filming a documentary at that and because of that you get this incredible look at this like what it was like on the come up it's incredibly inspirational whenever this happens i'm just glad that this that they did this and i'm i hope more people do this that that was my like big picture takeaway was really not even about deep mind itself and that i was gonna say that that like the need for like human craft goods so for example you could buy anything you want but like some people still want like the handmade shit from italy and they wanna know the story behind it and right when you're talking about the story about him playing the chinese guy and the korean guy like there's still a human is half of the story and arguably like i mean arguably it is is necessary to the story we are still drawn to stories and stories is in my head is sort of an analogy to like where humans fit into this thing we're still drawn to these like human elements of all of these stories which makes me believe like well we have to be part of this experience and like we're not gonna be completely outsourced because it's what the most interesting part is that this genius guy has called a shop this whole time and has been interested in this for years like that's actually the most compelling part yeah yeah although you know i think you don't wanna be relegated to like well we'll still make handmade goods it's like that's the one percent ninety nine percent is the is the mass manufacturer things you also don't want it to be where well we'll always be interested in human like entertainment and it's like but everything else be done by the app oh but i don't mean that but mean like you know like when do you fly on a plane you're not like can i get the one where the pilot's doing all the work right you're like okay cool this is like run by a computer that's way safer than a pilot great i'm there's brother there is a pilot but the computer can fly i'm like i just think that i'm not i i mean part of it is nervous but i do like well a big part of me is actually nervous but most of me like it's like it's like let people say like well some people say some people say it's not a big of a deal most don't but some some few people got their head in the ass most don't but some do i just think that like we still are gonna play an important role and like like i i'm not too worried although i am very worried there's also this funny thing that happen on the documentary point did you see this founder of robin hood talking about his documentary no what do he say so i didn't know this vlad from robinhood when robinhood was getting started he put up a kickstarter saying hey i'm gonna try to build this company that's gonna change the way the financial markets work and if you guys fund ten thousand dollars will film it because how cool would it be see steve jobs building apple how cool would it be to have seen you know these guys building google like that's what we're gonna do and then it didn't hit its kickstarter goal and they didn't do it is they crazy the kickstarter project still up you could see the trailer by the way i could see why i didn't get funded the trailer was garbage but like with the idea at him being like he's like yeah like in hindsight that was that was right that would have been awesome but we didn't hit the ten k we only got to two two thousand dollars donated so we didn't do it yeah so funny oh my god i mean did he actually compare himself as steve jobs or are you saying like i i i don't remember what it said in the kick kickstarter brought but i think he's not comparing himself he's just kind of like trying to get you excited about why should you care about this company you've never heard of and he's like well imagine if the great companies had had this at the beginning he would have wanted that right you know oh my god that's so funny he called a shot he just didn't like nobody cared yeah but i think like i've talked about this i'd love doing home movies so i i try to like every day i take like a three minute video of my family of us doing something and i have it on like a secret youtube channel what's your call it's sam super superstar secret channel built look but all the videos are unlisted you can even see if you wanted to but because a youtube short can be three minutes now and so i do i'm doing three because the problem with a lot of these videos that you take with your family or with your friends they're just like ten seconds and you're like telling your friend like wait repeat hold on do it again versus like here we are like remember when you're when you're kid your dad's like here we are christmas morning thousand four yeah we're doing this and those are the best those are the best videos and so i thank god it like we have these phones because that's really what a video should be it's like a three minute to five minute video of someone na saying what's going on and you're not know one's it's performing versus now whenever i pull my phone it's always like wait hold on tell me that joke again how do you feel that like are you so i definitely land on the optimistic side i think he's a badass ass and i loved hearing his story i think it's super mission driven i think it's super cool that these guys believe twenty years before anybody else i think it's super cool they film the thing i think the the breakthroughs they're do i like seeing use of ai that's not all the same which is like today the chat well the chat t experience is so dominant that it feels like that's what ai is and it's kind of like early internet like getting online and be like aim or able news like this is the internet and it's like no dude there's so much more that's gonna come that's how i felt when i heard more about the protein folding stuff and how they did the game stuff and how that's gonna apply to all these other domains and i'd walked away being like oh man if i was kind of young and just trying to figure things out if you're high potential you don't know where to go like i got two words that'll probably make you a billion dollars computational biology just go there and just go play around if you're an entrepreneur like forget building a gp wrapper builds an alpha fold wrapper i think you could build multi billion dollar like what cursor did cursor basically said they didn't make the model they're like let's take claude but we'll just wrap this in a tool that programmers can use that will be very useful for programmers go do that for pharmaceutical companies go do that for research labs go create oh or you realize that with protein folding people are gonna wanna test protein like the actual protein synthesis in the real world that demand is gonna go up a hundred x go create wet labs and just do the test for these for the people who are using computers to come up with their hypotheses that demand is gonna go thousand x i was man there's so much opportunity for anybody who wants it i got two words for you i thought it was gonna be like suck it but it was the computational biology you you took me you let me down a path i thought you're going what away not the other way that was great this was a great episode alright that's it that's about i feel like i could rude to where i know i could be what i want to from at all in it like a day's off on a go less travel never looking back alright my friends i have a new podcast for you guys to check out it's called content is profit and it's hosted by luis and ph ka after years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like red bull and orange theory fitness luis and fans are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue in each episode you're gonna hear from top entrepreneurs traders and you're gonna hear him share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit so you can check out content is profit wherever you get your podcast