Business as a sport, Surge AI, and Waymo vs. Robotaxi

dude manifest is out there's a new word what generative wait is high agency are we selling high agency we're selling high agency at the top right now we're we're spa high agency it's gone taking that cash and plowing it into general i feel like i could rule world i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a days off on a goal travel never looking me alright what i miss how was the week week was good what do we do chris quarter that episode popped off it's over a hundred k on youtube so that's going well and dude there were so many replies to one idea that was in that episode i don't know if you listen to the episode the golfing one the golfing one yeah dude i got literally hundreds of replies of people who are like i could do this right here in my hometown people are study powerpoint decks people are doing drive by sending me videos at the lake where they think they could do it they're reaching out cold it's very intense how many people have replied to this and now we're going and what was the idea was it was about betting as to where you could hit it no so basically on the way there's a place in new zealand on the way to the golf course just kinda side of the road there's like there's a road that's driving by a body of water and if you just stop on the side of the road there's just thing called like whatever the hold of one challenge and you buy a bucket of balls if you go try to hit this whole in one of this little golf hole that's floating out you know a hundred hundred yards away in the water if you hit if you get it you get ten grand and so it's just like a fun thing for you to do with your buddies like on the way or two or from a golf course and you're talking about like you know sort of napkin and mapping what do he thinks it's making based off of the available information he's like i think this thing does like three hundred to five hundred k you know in revenue and now the costs are pretty marginal like person standing there with an ipad they there's a scuba diver that goes in once a we can fish fishes out the balls like that's it and so people got we we we basically said hey i this idea could work at more places than just this random roadside thing in new zealand let's bring this to life and who wants to do this and that a lot of people have come come out and so we're gonna we're gonna make it a m project we're gonna see what we could do with this so i like all the comments were like this is what i've been missing with mfa because like we started a lot with that and then like our interests have grown and so the content has grown to be evolved to be a little bit different attempts and one critique is like what is this my first billion because we talking about like like you know bigger ideas and i was thinking i you know we've become acquaintances with joe lo who because of this podcast is worth i don't know billions some amount of billions and i was with him recently by the way if if you need to pick that up let me know if you need to pick up that that name drop i drive drop that up here did i drop that down so much no but he and he was telling me like oh man alright i was with them when i got my twitter check like you know how you get like twitter money now like your like right for example i for some reason my twitter was a thousand dollars last payment and like the month before it i was like six hundred dollars and i was like man this is crazy i just got paid six hundred dollars for tweeting which is insane he's like yeah i got like four hundred dollars and he was joking about how it feels just as exciting every once in a while to get like a four hundred dollar thing and it does however much money he's created in his lifetime and i was wondering do you feel like when you're talking about these things so you just lit up when you talked about three hundred four hundred thousand dollars when that may or i may not i mean i don't think so that's not gonna really move the needle for you in your life but it's kind of exciting isn't it yeah not because of the money it's just i think it's awesome i think the idea the idea itself is fun making it happen sounds like it's gonna be fun you know actually i was just watching an interview with a guy who they the nba finals just ended they had game seven the thunder one and there was hey i watched it i watched it there was this interview with one of the guys so they they asked jacob up there they're like you when you look back on this year what is the what are you gonna remember what what were the high points and he goes he's like it's weird dude he's like i remember if you think if i think about this year he's like i remember being chat we would go to our hotel room we would do film sessions been back when he was coming back back from injury to get it going on or like these team dinners that we were having he's like i couldn't even he's i don't remember what happened last series like i don't remember in the the recent games what happened but those kind of like those inputs on the journey are like just like are so vivid to me and this has been a very common thing where if you talk to pro players after the careers done and you're like what do you miss the most and you expect them to be like the big pressure moments that the those big games and of course they do like those but the thing they talk about always is the team bus rides the locker of room the it's all of the like cam rot stuff that happens along the way it's like the kind of the build is the stuff that they miss the most and i think it i think there's that for entrepreneurship too i think there's that that's a huge amount of the fun of it and it's what you get excited about you need the number to sort of justify it the the number gives you some air cover for why you're acting like a little kid you're so excited about something you need the numbers help because why are you taking this silly thing so seriously but i think we would probably all do it without the numbers as well or if the numbers were half as much or whatever yeah and i noticed the best the the the people who love m msn the most and the guests who you and i love the most are folks who you know i hung out with the a friend of mine and she was like because she was from a bad neighborhood now she's she's like you know i'm so good at going really high and going really low i was like what's that mean she's like i can hang out with like my homie is from where i grew up and we could just like shoot the shit and kinda be a little like hood ready or i can go hang out with a billionaire and i i love that too i can i have so much joy doing that as well and i can blend in and get along with everyone and i think that's like the that's like what the pod is is like you like talking about these smaller things as well as the big things that it's the same type of person who loves both yeah exactly also do you think about business as like a sport because that's more and more become my mental model is the way that because i you are you meet people and a lot of people we know have now become successful but they're still doing it and obviously for many of them i i i call it they've already made the last dollar they'll ever spend right let's us say you make thirty million dollars at that point you've already earned the last dollar you'll ever need to spend especially once you take into account that that thirty million could just say in a whether it's a simple interest bearing account or the p five hundred and it'll just keep it'll double every seven years so thirty becomes sixty sixty becomes one twenty one twenty becomes two forty and that just all happened over the course of you know something like twenty five years and so you've you don't need to go earn the next dollar but why do they anyways and part of it is i think it feels good to be good at something and if you're good at something it's hard to stop doing it because the feedback loop of being good at something is strong but i think in that same way if you think about business not as a mechanism to make money but as a sport as as a sport you play then it's like of course just because your great tennis and you wanna tournament it doesn't mean you'll stop playing tennis why would you do that that's your sport you love to play the sport you'll basically play the sport till your body breaks down and doesn't let you play the sport anymore and it feels good to manifest it feels good to have an idea and to see it in the reality into reality and it's really fun flexing that model manifest is out there's a new word what generative generative what is that this is this is gonna happen a few times to me now i wait agency are we selling high agency we're selling high agency at the top right now we're we're spa high agency it's gone taking that cash and we're plowing it into generative it's generative i was of podcast guess and i was like at the i like what was that and you could tell me the truth because i do podcast podcasts all the time with guests i know it's sometimes here miss like give me the from one podcast to another what was that like for you and he's like it was great because you're extremely generative he goes what and then he goes it was also hard because you're extremely generative like what's that mean he goes i'll say two things like i'll give you one topic but you can almost like bloom that or expand that into like a story a framework of this and a related idea a simple example you just generated all that content off the cuff right away and he goes you know bo is like that apologies is extremely gender if you give him one thing and he's able to like take it from like the origin of man to you know to hundred years in the future and he could connect all those dots so i heard it once i was like okay that's cool i don't know if i just got insulted or complimented being called generative but i i'll take it and then james courier said the same thing he goes he's like he's like the reason we get along is because we're both extremely generative he's like we like being around generative people hey he's like you know why do we admire elon suck because he's rich he was because he's the most generative of all of us right and he's the least fearful and that's why he's able to be more generative he's he's like he literally generates businesses like the boring company in neuro link and spacex and tesla he's like he's generating kids he's generating ideas he generates a president he generates he's just doing so much and that's admirable to somebody who is generative and so i started using that little lens started looking at people being like how generative is this person meaning he's if you could give them an inch could they take a mile and what is their overall level of output in their life you know like how generative are they with like for example james k it's not just businesses he's generated you know at one point you also started a church in san francisco i started a new religion and you know then he created this like sort of incubator in this fund then he created a podcast he's just constantly creating things because it's extremely generative and it's whether it's with his kid's life or it's his business life or whatever so i started to realize oh yeah i'm really attracted to that i like people who are like that and i i i wanna be like that and figure out a way to make that work is is a fun challenge it's a generative is the new work have you ever heard of this book called the inner game of tennis i've heard of it but i've never ran is it good yeah who's who's the pro who's it about okay so the inner game of tennis i randomly discovered it because i was at the airport and i was just looking for a book to read on my kindle and i wanted something short and i for some reason feel like i'm made a bookstore we're looking for books to download separately no like i i don't remember what i was just like i think like i was on amazon on my phone and like a sports psychology book came up and i was like okay that's intriguing what are what's like the top sports psychology book there is or something like that and i randomly came across the inner game of tennis it's about it's written by guy named timothy gal and it's one of these books that it's about life and it just uses ten tennis as the analogy and the premise of the book is that you have two self self one is your person so like when you say like when you're playing tennis and you hit you do a bad hit you go why do i suck so much or like like that is self one the critical self and then self too is like your animal self who doesn't who doesn't think too much and it's just your body and that learns by observing and it's all about how to be generative and by by ignoring self one and letting self too do all the work and it gives you all of these tips and tricks on how to listen to self too and this sounds very voodoo woo and it is a little bit voodoo woo but the book was written in the nineteen seventies and the coach of the sea h writes the forward what's his name pete carroll pete carroll yeah and like every new edition they still are like they're still releasing new additions where all these like who's who of leaders are writing about it and i think i i i didn't realize it but after i start reading was like oh wait tim ferris talked about this book it's one of his favorite books of all time and i've been reading it a whole lot and it applies very much to business i think it's only a hundred and fifty page book i've been reading i'm almost done i read it in like two days the the it's very similar are very applicable to business which is what you said about elon of he's not fearful and things like that if this book actually gives you like a set of frameworks in a way to communicate yourself in order to not be fearful when you are coming up with new ideas this is incredibly fascinating dude this is awesome i love this type of book it says the game of tennis the classic guide to peak performance introduction by bill gates and forward by pete carroll and that's crazy i didn't know that i didn't i don't have i don't have the bill gates so i know that so he wrote the the introduction that's wild and so have you used any of this or give me like has it have you found a way to kinda apply any of these yet well so like the a very simple example is like for looking weights or for going for a run when you lift weights you're like okay i have to lift this weight for three times and it's the heaviest weight that i've ever done so i'm really scared you don't listen to that at all and instead you just get under it and new i'm gonna let self too do all the work i'm gonna trust self too and if i fail i will not be judgmental i'm not gonna say you suck i'm set i will say the you know your knee moved in a strange way so i'm just gonna objectively acknowledge what's happening and then i and then i when i went lift three times i get it up on me and i just observe the weight on me and i only go for one rep and be like alright how does that feel self two let's just do the second rep so i basically am talking to myself sort of like an objective machine not an emotional person so the whole i'm fearful i'm fearful i'm fearful you just set that aside and you go itself to time there is no room for that it is only room for objective ness alright i did something similar to this in this in this vein that i didn't even plan to talk about but i'll i'll just tell you this i think it's it's kinda similar so one thing i noticed is anytime i go into a project you know i obviously have a lot of excitement and i have a lot of hope at the beginning correct that's obvious and then the second obvious thing is that i'm going to hit some sort of obstacles walls plateau something that i don't want to happen is for sure gonna happen i've never once experienced a project that i just simply started everything went as planned and it had a happy ending like this literally just never happened for me to expect that to happen would honestly be a little bit foolish it's like why would i think that that was the case yet at the same time as soon as though i hit those obstacles in those walls i'm like shit like i wish this didn't happen i don't want this happen why is this happening and i waste all this energy on something that was inevitable it's like playing mario and being like oh my god i can't believe these goo are walking at me it's like dude that's the game like what you mean like you wanted to play this game without anybody like trying to bite you you know i don't i don't understand what you thought this was gonna be and so recently i was doing a project and last week i wrote out a thing in advance i'm just gonna kind of read you this so i basically wrote like a a simple letter to self for like two months down the road and by the way three months down the road according to tim according to the inter game tennis when you have that feeling you don't you do not judge it as positive or negative you'd say now this is a challenge okay noted and then you just keep going do you what i mean there is no like this is horrible this is awful why me that that that that there are no emotions you do not judge you you don't judge the the emotion you're feel you don't judge yourself for feeling it or you don't judge the thing both so you you you only objectively acknowledge it so you say like so the ball was out okay right noted the the ball was hit too hard and then you're you trust self too to adjust but you don't you know you know you know what i'm saying you do not acknowledge or judge it as i hate this i suck this is bad it just the ball was out so i just gonna give you a little sense of how i wrote it so i was like i was okay it's me from the future randy i've ready eat this to you three months from now first congrats you did so good turned out amazing i'm really proud you slash me and i said this is a letter that is guiding you to some of the entirely predictable upcoming road bumps that are headed your way not only is it predictable that there will be road bumps i could probably tell you right now what they are going to be eric because like that's true so for example i was thinking about this isn't what i was doing but just make it a simple example let's say you're trying to hire ahead of sales there's some entirely predict like you know you wanna do it you know you'll you'll be able to do it but this is an entirely predictable road bumps which is like you know you're probably gonna procrastinate starting it a little bit because it's the idea of finding that perfect person a little bit hard and you might put it off a little bit then then you'll talk to some candidates who are disappointing you may even run into a candidate who's really great but the offer doesn't work out maybe maybe they don't take it maybe it's not the right time in their life etcetera etcetera so you could basically upfront tell yourself yeah these four obstacles are probably gonna be here i've played this level of the game before or i could just see what's what's coming and so when they come it takes the emotional edge off of it because it's like yeah i know there's no i don't feel betrayed by this i had don't feel surprised by this like i i'm you're just saying hello to it here you are you i thought i'd be seeing you soon and i all i also i had already kind of thought about like what i would do to get around that before it hits me and i'm in like an emotional state so it's like yeah i'm probably gonna meet a bunch of people who are kinda disappointing and they're probably feel in the moment like kinda i ever gonna find something great but of course i will only need one and it's a numbers game and i i i should probably just expect that i'm gonna talk to about you know thirty to forty people and that twenty five of those people are gonna be truly just a waste of time you know in terms of the interview that's okay that's that's part of the process if you tell yourself that up upfront then as it's happening you're like yeah well i already i already addressed this i don't need to like react to it again because i already kinda pre it to the whole thing and what is this project that you're doing like big or is like do you recommend doing this for a small thing or only a big thing i don't know this is my first time actually doing the like the corny step of like writing it out to myself of like dear sean yeah and is like ps you're pretty fucking lang for right this yeah yeah yeah exactly i was like alright that's three pages now this was cool when it was a paragraph i think it was it was very helpful i'll do it again i i will do it again i i mean i don't know how much this actually like it doesn't it sort of blunt the pain but the pain still there you know what i mean it's like when you get a shot at the doctor it's like if you really are looking at it and hyper fixated on it and you start hyper about it yeah it's kind of a worse experience you look away you might still feel a little prick but it you know you took the edge off of it i think that's what this is done for me alright so we're talking about like big and small do you want me to tell you about a small thing and a big idea that are to me are equally fascinating okay go to patron view dot com so i was in view okay yeah so i was with nick gray this weekend so i did this amazing or we did this amazing vacation where my friend david owns a home in utah and about eight of us or maybe six of us plus our spouses and our kids all went and hung out and it was amazing and nick was there and i was looking at his computer and i said nick what are you doing he goes let me tell you and it was very fascinating and so it's called patron view patron view dot com and so nick used to own this website or sorry own this service called museum hack where it was kind of amazing that it existed but you would pay a hundred dollars and nick or one of his tour guides would take you to the met and give you a sort of gorilla tour of the of the museum and it was amazing and so that's where he got really into museums and he became buddies somehow somehow got in with the guys who do the fundraising and because he's a business person he was like oh wow it's so fascinating that one person is dot a million dollars ten million dollars twenty million dollars to these museums and they do it every year and into tons of different museums that's really amazing and so recently with a a mutual buddy steps in blake they built this website where it's pretty amazing where all he did was if you go to the map or one of a dozen or hundreds of other museums they every year they have to put out a pdf that explains who donated money and how much money that person donated and so he's aggregated all of them hundreds or maybe even thousands and he used ai to upload all of them into a database so if you are fundraising for a museum i believe if i had to guess you're gonna be able to pay his service money to find out who the whales are you know whatever and it's crazy that because of ai he was able to make this he told me for two thousand dollars it i'm just gonna read the about page it says we're research platform a dedicated to documenting cultural phil i've never actually heard that before which is just shows how like much of a new about fl but that that makes sense so people who donate the things that are about culture and then it says we're and then it says the data our research is pulling from annual reports nine ninety tax filings institutional publications official documents and proprietary sources this lets us present donor information that's never before been displayed we like to think of it as celebrating phil and enabling development departments pretty cool awesome it's great right like i would see i was like nick what's your deal here like you want turn this into a business and he's very nick is happy like he's not looking for anything he's like don't know i'm just tinkering and in my head as someone who is probably less you know content than him i was like oh man like nick you could do this you could do this you could do this and that's like how the entire conversation came about but isn't this pretty cool that he's like building this and this is his hobby and the fact that ai has made it so easy yeah dude this is great i mean nick i've i've already you know really shattered him out on here a ton of times because somebody has made a big impact on me just seeing the way the schedules rolls through life i'm like he just does things for his own amusement he does things on his terms and i think he does things with high intentional and he doesn't seem and he basically resisted the rat race i think those are the people i admire the most of all is the people that have resisted the rat race like i think he neither chase his money nor status and if you think about the people who were talented to successful success in your life how many do you think actually truly are resisting money and status it's very very few i know probably two people him and jack smith yeah so it's pretty crazy and so you just sort of watch their moves and then you look at them and you you know you can kinda learn from them so this is this is extremely cool like i and what's funny about nick is every two or three years or something like that he likes to find a publicly traded company that he loves and he'll make a big bet on it and right now his or for the past probably four or five years actually his bet has been cloud flare like for some reason i don't know he's all this analysis he like loves it to the point where like when he hosted an event he specifically hosted his event in the cloudflare event space because he's like so loyal wear cloudflare t shirts whatever like one time there was a a race like a like a five k or a marathon through austin and whole like hold up a sign that says like cloudflare rules like this because they went to like you told like at his birthday party he had his birthday party at the cloudflare office and then midway through the birthday party ran upstairs it got like two like like a product manager and like the area yeah to come down and be like hey everybody quick word from jack from the marketing department why don't you just tell some about the great things you guys going on a cloud the guy's like yeah so so either before and before he brought that guy in he goes i need everyone to treat jack from cloudflare player like a celebrity and so when he walked in we go oh my god is that jack are you the vp of engineering at cloudflare oh my god he's here he's here stop the stock is up four hundred percent in the last five years so you're done pretty well he's done well and if you click the about page i know for a fact so he lists an area that says technology patron view patron view is built with modern web tech to ensure fast reliable access to data and he only did that so he could list that he uses cloudflare i know that's exactly how he thought but the reason i'm bringing this up is i think that if you're like just starting to build a business or something you should follow patron view or like go there like go there once a week and i and i would bet that you're gonna see like it evolve like you know it's sort of like measuring your kid on the wall like you're gonna see like the measuring like like that's what's gonna help cool that i think another another cool thing about this is this fits into like a a genre that you know personal software so or maybe social software so basically when the internet came out before pre internet the only people that made media or media companies you know you got your media from the new york times and at the huffington can post whatever like newspapers magazines tv etcetera and then when the internet came out and you got facebook and twitter and instagram and snapchat then social media became anything and everybody became a little broadcast right everybody broadcast a little moments of their life or their content or their their interest whatever it was and there was this explosion like you know a sort of like one billion x increase in the amount of media that was created because everybody was doing it and like one clear thing i see that's happening in the world today is that that's now happening with software so software used to be something that only software companies and software engineers could make and you know there's only like i don't know there less than a hundred million of roughly software engineers like proper like professional software engineers in the world so you know a hundred million out of eight billion people could do the thing and you know if in terms of software companies there's even less maybe a hundred thousand software companies i don't it's order of magnitude roughly and now with like rep and v zero and all these different tools it's gonna be like social media where we're like oh i have a i carry in my pocket a thing that can make media it's like i carry in my pocket a thing that can make software so guy like nick who before this probably couldn't have taken his idea and made it into an app because he would have to either a learn to code or b go higher like expensive programmers to make this happen like he did most of this with ai and so you see personal software this like you know this personal software category which was like didn't exist three years ago or five years ago isn't going to have the same sort of like one billion x you know increase just because anybody who's got an idea can now make their idea now today it's like broken three fourth of the time doesn't quite work but like every six months that number goes down by fifteen percent and so you know within two or three years that number's is gonna be like zero right it's gonna be that when you have an idea you make your app everything that i've been making on rep and lovable and cursor it's basically just like a fig replacement like i'm just like it's basically just like drawing on paper yeah it's just like a mock up and do still need someone till i actually do the work but it but it's a sick mock up yeah like it looks yeah so somebody called it minimum viable promise so it's minimum viable product it's like it's not really a product but it's like it kinda has like you make a promise you you'd see the promise of something and i think that's what a lot of these tools are able to do today have you heard of a guy named edwin chen edwin chen i mean there's like you probably have probably six thousand of on facebook yeah i went the school in beijing i think i got a few edwin chen in my ro edwin chen might be the like if you did like a chart of like richest slash unknown slash youngest person in the world i i think it's gonna be edwin chen is this the guy who's doing surge so yeah so edwin chen in like two thousand eighteen two thousand nineteen he worked at facebook and the story is is that he was tasked with like making some type of yelp style product and what that meant was he had a list of fifty thousand vendors or and he needed to figure out which of those fifty thousand was a restaurant and which were a grocery store and so he went and hired a firm some company to like parse it out and it's like manual manually you you you had to do it manually like you had to like hire some firm that had a lot of offshore talent to go through and do it all manually by hand and he was like it took us four months or six months something like that which basically just meant we had to sit and wait like we couldn't do anything until we had that data so i just had to sit and wait and so he had this idea where he was gonna make a better way to do data labeling and the data data labeling is important now because that is what a lot of ai companies use which i had no idea they they did that and i'll explain how they do that but basically when a company like open ai wants to figure out if a certain rep reply is unethical so like for example asking like if is it okay to like hits someone on i don't know like whatever like questions you would ask it a real person and and actually not just a real person but like a really smart person even someone who like does engineering or philosophy needs to spend time going through all the potential answers and to tell open i think this one sort of fits what you're going for but anyway edwin had this idea of i'm gonna create this massive workforce of philosophers of engineers of ivy lee grad grads who can go through and label all of these answers as good or bad so ai companies can kinda of i can be like their offshore talent and so he's done this and it started in two thousand and twenty now he has a hundred thousand people who are in the marketplace working for him and as these data label and this company is completely unknown so if you i think it's surge ai i believe is the url so if you go to search ai it's a landing page with one paragraph that's an amazing paragraph if you want you can read you wanna read it yeah i was just reading it what bay people like hemingway ka and von neumann so extraordinary their life the books they read the stumbles they had the reinforcement every time friends laughed at their jokes and every time they didn't it's the people that met the police board at every decision they made along the way data does for ai what life does for humans it elevate the neural networks that know nothing about the world into the intelligence capable of providing new art sending rockets ships mars etcetera our mission is to shape ag with the richness of human intelligence curious witty do you imagine if it unexpected brilliance we wake up every they trying to produce the data that makes this possible amazing right romantic it's romantic and then this guy made like a giant fleet of overseas data label sound like the the army from three hundred yeah yeah it's it's the best and in the real website i believe is data annotation dot tech that's the website where the that's the website where the where the ann tate go to apply but the way that this the way that the yeah it's much more traditional and that one there's like a brown dude staring at a laptop with a reflection blurring his eyes and it says get paid to train ai in your schedule and so the way the business model works is they have a hundred thousand of these folks and they train them on different standards and whatever and then they've also made software so they can show the the the basically homework or tasks to their folks and a company like open ai or google whatever whatever is gonna pay a surge millions and millions of dollars and surge is ain't gonna take something like thirty or forty percent of it and give it to the ann to do the work so this company is only five years old and it's it was leaked that they did one billion dollars in revenue in the last twelve months and this guy edwin chen he's only thirty seven years old and he owns one hundred percent of the company they have not taken any outside funding holy now listen their biggest competitor is a company called scale scale is run by this guy named alexander wang i think alex alex wan same is and it recently sold for something like thirty times revenue i believe it's they were doing like eight hundred nine hundred million in revenue they just sold half of the company to facebook i think it was for twenty eight billion or thirty yeah thirty which me which means this guy edwin who's thirty seven and has a five year old company presumably is worth something like thirty billion dollars and you can't find him on twitter he has no blog you can't find photos of him he used to have a blog but you have to go to web archive in order to find it because he took it down and his customers are like edwin is not online you can't find him anywhere and we like it that way his born his business is very boring the branding is basically not existent and it just does a very good job and compared to scale who's like you know the hottest kid on on the block like alex wang was just on the von podcast it was at the inauguration he's kinda like kinda like the the it guy right now the these guys are the exact opposite not gonna fight them anywhere they only have a hundred employees they're totally under the radar and it's super super fascinating dude this is this is wild i i did not know that he bootstrap the whole thing i i also had never heard this company until scale got bought i'd never heard of this company so they're they're the company is is is killing it now because scale got bought so because scale got bought who is now owned basically by facebook google and and a bunch of like them they go we don't wanna we don't have with you anymore we go straight search but they were already winning they were at a billion in revenue and scale was at seven hundred fifty billion but and the reason why they're winning is because they are they charge a premium and they're they he's like i don't we got scale but he's like i wasn't trying to get scale meaning i wasn't trying to grow big i was trying to hire the best people and to train them really well and i charged for i charged three times what scale charges and the results have been better and people really like us because of it and this whole table data labeling industry i had no idea about this i i didn't know that people were behind the scenes making these decisions is kind of wild i mean this is one of the best like picks and shovel businesses so if you've never heard picks and shovel it's a the idea is like anytime there's a gold rush who makes the money yeah it's the the few people who find the gold but the more reliable way to make money is just to sell picks and shovel to everybody else who's rushing into the gold rush and scale its surge where the best picks and shovel businesses maybe besides nvidia because what they were doing saying cool everybody you want everybody wants to compete to become the you you wanna make ag you wanna make ag you're all raising billions of millions of dollars well all of you have the same problem and i will sell the data labeling service to all of you and this is so funny that now that facebook is buying scale it's like there's all that revenue has to find a new home like this that is crazy that that's the best news ever for this guy and there's another company called handshake so if you could go to join handshake dot com previously or it still might be this but they were known as a company that helped recent college graduates get jobs and so basically they're a job board job network for twenty two year olds dude yeah this was for college kids okay well listen to this they noticed a few months ago that surge and scale we're using their service to find these these data and so they go we're gonna do that now and so in a very short amount of time they pivoted and that business that they have is gonna be at a hundred million dollars a year in the next couple months in a very short amount of time because what they did was they went and just said oh you are looking for a data annotation gig we got you let's let's go ahead and get you trained and we're just gonna provide that service to folks and so handshake is building that business now dude that's so crazy i remember using this because i was like oh it's interesting that nobody's really built the the kinda like one place to go higher college interns or college like fresh grads and they built this like marketplace where you could go post on a job board at my local college here and i could get but but it was like kinda crappy dude it was like it wasn't great it was very like little liquidity in the market but i remember thinking like this is interesting idea somebody like it's a marketplace i like marketplace somebody should do this right and i remember they were kinda like putter along for a while it seemed like and this is so funny that they pivoted to this and now we're gonna just explode yeah and if you google handshake data annotation you can find the blog post that they that they wrote on them announcing that they were doing this and so it basically just says that for the past decade handshake has changed how college shoot started their careers and then it goes on to basically say we're changing the company to like just hire just do this thing and it's already making a and they don't actually say this but like it's now making a hundred million dollars a year and you know i don't know how long this stuff will last like you know this might be a business that i think in like seven to ten years you may not need this anymore like it seems like the way ai is going you may not need this kind of human into the loop to label all this data either either they label they label enough data where the model learns how to label data and you don't need humans doing this or they use a thing that doesn't have the our our rl jeff right like you you you it's just do reinforcement learning without human feedback and i think some people who are kind of pure believers in ai think you won't need the human feedback at a certain point so this might be a get get while the get is a good type of business so let me let me tell you a a potential counter to that so tim west founded the company called pandora and i think he started it in nineteen ninety maybe ninety eight so it was like both pre iphone wait when did the iphone come out oh wait zero six yeah so it was like probably like two thousand two then and anyway he told me this story because we had him talking one of our events where he was like i raised seven million dollars and all seven million dollars of that went to hiring basically ex musicians or musicians who were teachers and didn't to make a lot of money and for two years i had about a hundred and fifty of them listening to music and i gave them basically a scant of all types of attributes that a song can potentially have and so if you're listening to the beatles you would fill out like okay it sounds like it's at like ninety beats per minute it sounds like there's guitar like it's mel it's light hearted whatever and after two years of doing this he put all the data basically scant trans into this algorithm that he built and he started playing like he told me a beatles song and then and then he clicked next and it would suggest new music that was similar to the one that the the beatles on that he originally played and he said the bg came up and he was like the bg and the beatles they're not similar at all what the hell and then he kept clinic next he's like wait they had to say melody or they had they all like have to say same like they made me feel similar and he was like it's working it's working and so originally his idea was i'm gonna create kiosk at best buy so you could say i'm interested in beatles but here's like five of their songs that best buy could show you and you will buy those cds while you're there and then the iphone came out and he was like oh my god this is actually the exact way to apply this and so this idea of data data labeling has been around forever and i didn't when i was reading scale or about sergio i like oh my god this is exactly what tim was explaining to me how pandora started and so this has been around for twenty years and so you say don't know if it's gonna be around or not but i don't know it's been around for twenty years so far yeah that's true but it's kinda like like self driving which is coming out now i've taken it the way in san francisco and robo taxi in austin the tesla the tesla self driving just launched in austin i think like two days ago or something but they took two different approaches so way basically has this really expensive car i don't i forgot the all in cost but it's something like a hundred fifty to three hundred thousand dollars it's the cost of the car with all the sensors on it right so they've this really expensive car with lidar and in addition to the lidar they hard code and hard map the roads so you know for for years they would drive around and basically like map the road physically and they could only launch in cities where they had mapped the roads and tesla took this other approach which was basically cameras only no lidar and we're knocking gonna hard map the roads we're gonna let people drive around and then the car needs to have a brain that's smart enough to figure out a road even if it's never been on that road before and who it was this interesting bet because elon was like lidar is not only we're not doing it it's stupid and that's a dead end path and everybody else was all in on lidar everyone's like lidar makes it safer it's better you can't do this is not lidar and elon point was we humans drive with just eyes we only have cameras we don't i don't have a lidar in my brain and i'm able to drive safely right and lidar is what lidar is like you're shooting some type of signal and it bounces back you can see through things so i don't know exactly what's the difference lidar radar and all these different things but like it's another version of basically scanning that allows you to do what a camera can't camera can't see through an object lidar can it could sense that there's another another object behind it so let the classic example is like you know you know maybe you're gonna do a a turn there's something obstructing your view it but then there's a little old grandma walking on the crosswalk but you couldn't see the grandma until you started to turn visibly but lidar would know that there's something there's an object there that's that's moving point is other sensors besides cameras whereas elon was like no we're just gonna put like whatever eight cameras on the car and that's gonna make it work and for a long time there was a big debate some experts thought elon is wrong some were just like elon is correct and the elon we trust and very smart people were on both sides of the debate and it was like a very high stakes debate because self driving cars is one of the most valuable prizes that there is a like self driving cars i don't know people really realize it i think because it's i think because people talked about it for a while they got kinda numb to it it's actually happened with ai too people have been talking about ai maybe machine learning deep learning for a long time people didn't really realize when something actually had changed and then suddenly like wait it it's actually here and the same people who had been tracking it for a long time were almost late to the party because they mistakenly wrote it off as yeah yeah yeah i've heard this before and so the same thing's happening with self driving cars we're sort of like yeah yeah yeah but it's like wait a minute it's actually happening now it's because it's an extreme game changer both like for society for tesla's business right like tesla's business it's is now gonna be if you own a tesla when you're instead of ninety five percent of the time your car just sits parked you're gonna just tap a button and say go make me some money please and like a dog it's gonna go fetch it's just gonna go out there and it's gonna start doing rides for people and it's just gonna start earning you money passively all the time dude i think i think morgan stanley or chase one of the big banks like last week was like rot wrote this report where they had to say what the world's gonna look like with self driving and it wasn't like it it was far more grand they're like the economy is going to look radically different because people are going to have so much more time like it was like at a macro scale it was like oh like the world will change because of this but it was also like there's sixty i think thousand car deaths a year like what's the world gonna look like with with more people like like everything was like i pretty meaningful like it was like a very grand way of thinking about it it wasn't just like oh wow i could play on my phone while i'm walking or driving to work was like no everything changes i i asked last night i asked g i said what are the second order effects of self driving cars here's what it said so it's like cities are gonna look completely different right now parking lots itself occupy thirty percent of all urban land in some cities and this is gonna you're not gonna need parking lots because the cars aren't gonna just sit park they're gonna be rolling around gonna need way less cars in a city plus they don't they're not gonna sit still so you don't need all of the space just look around the city how much space is dedicated just a parking like we're gonna look back and that's gonna look sort of like a caveman men style thing it's like this in the future those are gonna be parks and but gonna be like it's gonna be smoking in a restaurant hey yeah exactly and so like the good version of this is that's like you know green spaces and affordable housing but like who knows maybe maybe it actually gets coop opted for some other purpose they all just become like you know drone delivery you know parking units where where amazon keeps like ten million delivery drones the next one is labor so right now there's three and a half million truck drivers alone let alone all of the like uber and taxi drivers and you're just not gonna need that job period like and i don't know what happens to that but there we go the next one is you know basically i think the average person spend something like ninety minutes a day just commuting and so you get you know of your wait time let's say you're awake for sixteen hours you're gonna add you know what is that so let's just pretend it's two out of sixteen you're gonna add like you know thirteen percent more time to everybody's day where they can now sleep eat work play right you're gonna sit in a car and you're not gonna have to think about the car you're just gonna be able to do one of those things which also means the car becomes a new place for entrepreneurs to build experiences right like today there's no one out there being like i build car games right you there's people who build mobile games and xbox games but there's nobody builds car games well car games is gonna be become a thing because people gonna sit in cars and play video games people gonna sit in cars and they're gonna relax recover they're gonna work and so you're gonna build tools that that go in them another one is insurance it's like the whole insurance system like you know buffett big bets and geico and all these things it's all based on human driving and so if humans aren't driving anymore like both the risk and the the the risk reward ratios change but also who are you ensuring you're ensuring the software company versus like individuals like how is this all gonna work and so that whole in all the whole insurance industry changes and then basically like car ownership so today owning a car is both like utility but also status symbol so it's gonna be kinda interesting like you're a car guy like i wonder when they're self driving cars and basically transportation is just on tap like flowing like water right you just you push a button in in thirty seconds a little car the car of your liking pull just gonna be like it's gonna be like people who like horses now like it's gonna be a small group of people who are questions yeah it's just like oh you're passionate about it and you are lucky enough to have enough room or enough money to like afford it but like maybe i would like buy a group on and can go experience that once in my life like that's what it's gonna be yeah or like you know like horsepower like therapeutic people like to like brush a horse or pet horse it's gonna be like that with a car it's gonna be like male therapy to just like get in there and just be behind the wheel yeah control over something in your life yeah it's gonna like like hun yeah you could like feel the noise and like smell the gas like it's gonna be it's gonna be like a hobby yeah it's not gonna it's not going to exist i don't think i think it's gonna be a lot longer but like in twenty it could be twenty years twenty five years it's not gonna be in the next five years but yeah it's gonna be a hobby are you sure about that why do you think it's exactly gonna in the next five years way are now doing twenty percent of all the rides in san francisco because that was zero like have like have you ever like a large percentage of people of americans have to have to drive let's say sixty miles one way to to work or they have to like pull stuff or carry stuff i just don't think i think that for the urban there's it's not oh there's good there's gonna be like there's probably gonna be like four sections of users so it's like young urban nights and it's like yeah you guys don't need a car at all like you're you're you're doing already there with uber yeah and then like the far end of that spectrum is like rural people who have to actually toast stuff you know even though everyone has a truck very few actually use it but there's like that section and then there's like the people in between and there's gonna be a timeline because like if you ever you can't really tow anything on electric car right now it's like it's they you say you can but go talk to someone who lives in rural texas when you it's like be driving shit around all day it's like impossible so i think that there's gonna be like it's gonna be like for you know what's that early what you say it's not gonna be five years or are you saying it's not gonna be meaning self driving is not gonna work not gonna it's gonna work it's just not gonna just the user adoption it it's like it's gonna it's gonna take a minute for that for the whole spectrum of people i think for the urban nights and people like that it's it's tomorrow we're gonna do it i think yeah i mean think i towing probably still doesn't it still has an aol email address right yeah yeah like so i think it's pretty safe to say that that person's not yeah it might be forty years before that person it's gonna be a long time but then like you know there's like a lot of you know people like i'm one them like i'm romantic about my gas vehicle i had an electric car and i got rid of it and i'm like in my head i'm like i acknowledge it's better i acknowledge that like it's the future but it sucks i want it's like our vegan friends it's like i get it yeah it's like we should kill creatures but it just tastes so yeah but would you dip them in ranch but i'm excited to it what's crazy is in austin i think or s f people are actually paying more for the way most yeah yeah it's not it's not that much cheaper yet that was but people are people want to not be around someone and that was unexpected it's like when i was when i drive my my i a bmw that has self driving stuff i feel way safer on that than if it were just me and i think that there's like twenty percent of people and it's usually men i've noticed i've noticed women tend to hate everyone i've talked to hate self driving and every man i've talked to likes it and like have you have you do have any self driving now no well i don't i don't have so i haven't had that that level of a i haven't had a sample size to to no i've noticed that curious that that's common or if you're just like indexing out three people no it's well yeah i am but yeah it's like five of my friends like the husband's use it and the wives are like no nope i don't mess with that i don't use it right but i feel way safer with it you wanna do one more thing or will you have something well i have a so i tweeted something out that elon replied to over the weekend and how did that make you feel did you like did you like clap like screen no so i first of all i played it so cool you wouldn't if you had seen me you would have thought i might be under the weather that's how cool i was planning it and actually what happened is i just texted my wife and i was like not elon replying to me and and then i just i forgot about it next day didn't think about it i i moved on my mom calls me she's like sean what did you say i'm like what she's like sean what did you say elon what you say to you on and i was like what my wife put it up on her instagram story and i was like oh my god i'm trying to play cool over here and then you made it like you know lame city so that felt interesting that i got like multiple phone calls from people and i'll do that's like the only time your wife has shared something that it is what another person that replied to you yeah exactly and so i thought that was interesting helping big of the reaction reactions but the thing i had said was i wrote within a couple years not using ai while you're doing your job will be the equivalent of coming to work without a computer i someone just turned up and they're like not didn't bring it today you'd be like what the hell do like what what are you planning to do what well what is the what's the plan here that's how it's gonna be if you're if you're trying to do your job and you're not using ai constantly did you just do your job yeah and that was he was like you know sooner probably and and and so that was like and and so i started thinking about that and i started thinking about somebody else said this thing they go pretty soon being a doctor who's not using ai as a c copilot like you're let's say a radio and you're just trying to eyeball every every mri and you're not also running it through ai that'll be considered malpractice because like you put the patient at risk by not at least including the second layer of ai diagnostics and i thought that's pretty interesting it's like the flip is gonna go so much from this doesn't work you know you would something we don't do we don't even use it too if you're not using it it's considered malpractice whether there's corporate malpractice or medical malpractice my doctor friend admitted to me the other day he goes open ai is a better doctor than me and he was like and i knew this was gonna be popular because for years it's been a doctor for ten years patients come to me and said well google says this or web mds says this and he says over the last six months the only people who have used that reasoning is with open ai and it said well according to open ai yeah chad petri said this and he goes and they're right a lot of times the diagnosis is right i began a fight with a doctor recently about this i tell you this what did they say my mom had to have a surgery and but she was on a trip and so i'm like calling in to the doctor every time the doctor would make her rounds she would like facetime me in she's on those other side of the country and so the doctor would come in and like doctors doctors are very hit or miss i love some doctors but a lot of doctors i'm like wow this is an extremely under woman experience and so this one doctor comes in and she's like yeah your levels were fine and then i'm like i actually read the test through chat gp and the levels were like high for this as she's like well which level and i'm like i tell her like whatever the thing then the whatever the the term was and she's like yeah that was hot but you know it depends on the exact number like what was the number i i would have to check i'm like you're the doctor so yeah you would have to check like you know what are what you talking about and i'm like you know they i basically chad gp said if it's above this then you should consider doing this like additional additional step like do you believe that that's like do you agree with that like do you think we should do that that step she's like well i didn't i mean you're putting me on the spot here and i don't have the number and i'm like and she basically was getting pissed and she's like well if you're gonna ask me questions and i'm gonna need to go look at the number and i literally was like yeah you are gonna need to go look at the number gonna ask the questions like what are we doing here i don't understand like why are you offended by me asking if you if you have seen the data from the test the test you just said to run now you're coming back to discuss the test results and you don't want to look at the test i don't really understand what's happening here well i think what's gonna happen is that you know how have you noticed so have you ever been to a doctor now with an ai scribe so like they have like her okay so for a long time oh i was humiliating her in front of her ai scribe is that what happened well for a long time they could've have been human scribes and so like i have you been to a doctor and seen like a person on an ipad like literally it looks like the doctor's face timing typing notes yeah yeah and that's like a scribe now they have ai scribes and i think what's gonna happen is it's like the the ai is gonna like talk up and be like actually ma'am he's right like like i think that's what's gonna happen and if i was an entrepreneurial doctor i would one hundred percent start a new practice all centered around we are ai first so we work with our ai you know and i don't think that you we are we aren't at the point and maybe we'll will never be at the point where you totally trust it just like you always want the pilot even if autopilot pilot is still a thing right but i would like go heavy on that of leaning into like we have all of the contacts here we have all of your files uploaded to our chat g or whatever it is and have an ai first because i think that a lot of people like you and me and people listened to his podcast they have the similar sentiment where they're like oh no i trust a computer way more than a human being but i would also want the human being to put their stance on it it's also the again i see the difference because it's not even that like oh the ai found the problem and the doctor didn't sometimes it's just as simple as like cool the doctor came in they talk kinda fast they didn't fully explain i i still have more questions and so you go when you ask chad explain it to you maybe simpler or you ask for follow questions maybe you're not as embarrassed to ask questions you feel like you're not like you know the person's not like in a rush to get out of there like a lot of doctors are and so sometimes it's not even that the ai doctor is better because it's smarter sometimes it's because it's infinitely patient or is an an infinitely better communicator or you know it knows you know maybe other things about you you know you could ask some follow questions you don't feel silly doing it like those are other components of the doctor experience essentially bedside manner that yeah is better at yeah and so i'm like very eager to see how this works i go to i go to a a a doctor now a concierge doctor and it's not very expensive but the reason i go there the average at most doctors they have to see four patients an hour so they're at fifteen minutes right and is that insane i remember i went to a doctor and like my i had an ear i'm my guy my ears killing me and like he spent no time like trying to like help me like figure this out and i went to a concierge doctor and the average time is forty five minutes so we can like thoroughly walk through things and so if i can just use all the information that they have and then go and ping chat to further the conversation it is pretty brilliant i'm very eager to see what's gonna happen i like people act like ai is amazing for a bunch of different stuff and it is but the what they're doing with medicine and drugs and cancer and things like that is like pretty astounding and i think that's gonna to be the major breakthrough there in the next couple years do the other one lazy ass parenting so your kid's a little young for this but it is amazing to dude i'll open up gemini and and it has like a camera mode why do you use different ones you've said claude or sorry you said g and now you're saying gemini and and then we also refer check so you use different weather it's like you know you go to your different friends for different questions you only ask me certain questions sometimes you go to jack's and sometimes you go to you know you gotta jail you got different people for different things so like if you want to be if you want something that's a little bit more real and objective i think rock is better if you want somebody that's either code or creative a writing claude is better you know the the catch all is chat gp and then gemini i has some like advanced features so this what i saying like gemini i has the thing where you just turn your camera on like facetime and i think it's for like maybe you're supposed to like show what your car i'd be like how do i repair this and like tells you what to do but i just pointed at my kids and i'm like hey we're playing char aids guess what they're doing and then my kids will like get on the ground and start like crawling and it's like seems to be a boy crawling maybe it's a snake are you a worm and it like tries to guess it and they love it dude and so i'm able to just straight up chill and let them play with ai it is amazing another one i'll do is i'll just be like hey i have a five year old and a four year old here and they want trivia questions they like animals they like pop patrol they like you know they know a little bit about pokemon but nothing too complicated ask them a bunch of questions cheer them on when they get it right if they get it wrong tell them the right answer keep track of the score here's their names go that's the prompt and it plays trivia endlessly with my kids and they love it because it's all audio which kids can do they don't have to like be on screens to be able to do this and so i'm just discovering like game after game i can play with them like i'll do like basically replaced coupon with hey i need advanced kindergarten math which like i don't even know what that means but it like gets you for whatever reason those three words give me the sweet spot of like the question that that kinda works for my kids and it's like a tutor right it's a infinitely patient tutor with them and it's not perfect in the sense of like you know sometimes it like starts and stops its audio because if you make any sound it thinks you're talking but dan it's pretty it's pretty good and it's like already usable for us i'm not seen you i i didn't even i didn't know much i'm mean i gemini live i had no idea what this was is this google this google gemini is like after summer break you know that one kid who comes back it's like they're kinda like hot now but you still have the old image of them like their reputation is still being at like not hot yeah but objectively they're hot now yeah but nobody's really on it yet that's what gemini i is gemini was basically out of the game it's google's ai tools out of the like i just chat t g she games yeah and then she changed and she like it's like wait like she got contacts and like she learned how to do her hair she's like walked watch to makeup tour it's like her roller bla which was like surprising a good cardio and now like suddenly gemini could do things that like the other ones can't do but nobody's on it yet which doesn't really actually give you any benefits wait so gemini is hot now gemini hot now google's hot google's hot yeah i don't know man that's hard for me to buy into but yeah because you're one of those jo at schools just stuck in seventh grade for that what happened over seventh grade summer alright i'll use this yeah i'm just stuck on chad and i don't use g because i i i'm shot when people say they use g i'm like wait so you go to like twitter dot com to use brock dot com that's just is that the same thing as that's the twitter one yeah because steph smith just got a job at this other one what was that other one called oh no she got it at g with a queue that's stupid naming unfortunate unfortunate i'm a shareholder of g with the queue also but unfortunate naming situation yeah and it's ai as well they're making chips okay well they should change their name changed their name because yeah that that doesn't make sense or at least a pronunciation right like i don't like i don't know how you all to be g or something completely broke i don't know what they're gonna do they could be g i guess but they yeah g is so it's the same you love you put in the end in there like it's rob ko wait what did i say you're saying g oh what is it cro g yeah like the shoes cro yeah like cracks yeah wait and so what is the twitter thing what do you mean what is it all oh that's not g oh i thought it was g yeah there's no anne any of them that guy's a football player he's the retired football player i went to my montana to visit a friend last week and i wore overalls because they're like the best i saw a photo of that and i just did thought to myself holy shit this guy's gotten this guy's got no no limits wearing overalls is standard standard wear it's the best clothing because you could put your phone in your wallet right there on the chest and so you're like holy kids and like you just have so many pockets that you've like this right here and i love it and she was like oh you got these did you did you think that we're all cowboys here and i was like which is like you wore your overall sam samantha are you trying to make front us i was like what are talking about i i've worn these three years like i am not pretending no i actually just got a the i was very inspired by your instagram post you wrote something the caption of your post you go from now on i'm only taking photos that if my kid looked at it twenty years from now they'd be like my that was pretty cool that was great that's that's because you you have that photo of your father right of him when he was in his thirties and you're a baby and he's like doing something cool he's wearing a cool shirt and you're like oh wow that was sick they're oh yeah you see them like that anymore right like they don't care anymore they're like fat now or whatever and so you don't you don't see that side of them but like it lets you put a little respect on their name when you see like oh damn yeah young they were actually kinda they actually kinda fly what they're wearing so i was smoking a cigar and they were which i never do but i like was smoking a cigar and like they were gonna take a photo with my kid or someone had a camera i was i go take photos and i put the cigar i used to hide i hide it behind my back and i'm like not fuck this she's gonna be proud and like put back here dude said smoking is gonna be cool in thirty years that's gonna be like you had like a slave with you or something it's gonna be crazy that you were just smoking with a baby on your shoulder brother have you seen the photo of the eight guys sitting on the the beam off the like i empire state building it's great i think i think it myself those guys are crazy they're dangerous but they're fucking hard that is awesome and so i will never be on the beam of the empire state building a thousand feet above the air but at least i could smoke a cigar and look remotely cool dude we should print this out i want this framed do three of them have overalls very similar to the ones you were wearing yeah what's up same make and model yeah you just need this like bra hat you probably have this i what do i talk about it of course you have this hat yeah and the courage to eat launch a thousand feet above the grunt which is like even back then the coworkers are like guys what are you doing there's a cafeteria like right here all like it's a fuck yeah alright that's it that's bob i feel like i could rule word i know i could be what i want to from at all in and like a days off on a roll less travel never looking back