#136 with Jack Smith - Trading Cards and Collectables: A Deep Dive Into The Opportunities In The Space

u yeah i feel like i could rule where i know i could be what i want to put at all in it like a day's off on a goal travel never looking back so an introduction here this is jack smith he's one of my one or two closest friends he's number dude number one he's there above tell everyone net number one so no it's like there's like a couple guys who heard the we have like a tight group jack doesn't like to brag i'm gonna brag for him but basically he started this company called v which was sold to blacks stone the large pe company for i think seven hundred fifty million dollars in cash they had raised a little bit of money but not a significant amount it was a wonderful exit he also helped start this company called ship which crash and burn but it was awesome it was cool while lasted and it was a good idea and then he was he had his did you know sean jack had his hands he was involved slightly with that remember that credit card that went viral in two thousand and thirteen or fourteen where it was like called coin and do click a button and it would change your debit cards you could have five deck cards on one card it was sweet concept it was one card and then you just switch over you just push a button it's like now it's your business now it's your travel rewards card or whatever else i think it was a kick kickstarter project right jake or like it got started as kickstarter yeah yeah it was like one of the first to use sandwich video which is the guy that has done videos for like square and always these after he was one of the first ones to do it and then it kind of went viral mainly to the video so talk about the sandwich guy because that guy is interesting right so he has if you haven't seen it basically he was like a adding agency you're i'm not adding agency don't know what to call it but marketing agency and he would make videos and so people wanted their version of the the dollar shave club launch video which was like this really like funny entertaining but like told the company's story really well and got a bunch of customers got a bunch of hype and so if you go to their portfolio page like kind of like a bunch of big winners like slack and others and at some point you know he they were just charging some and and the guy himself i think he's named adam is that right yeah yeah he's in all the videos which is cool and he's a good actor guy he's like good straight man you know he's like he's the perfect like normal dude just explaining this cool thing and he got to the pump where it was too expensive he would only take equity or he would like require equity now for for these projects that he's helping launch into the kind of the stratosphere is he still doing that or have they pivoted it or what what's what's the latest because that i was a few years ago well actually coin was one of the first ones so i think coin it was something like the video was something like seventy five thousand dollars or something i don't know so they paid in cash for actually because was because of the video that they just did so much better than a fall then the guy just told him like hey dude like you pretty much blew it out the park for us so he just like gave him at amazing even know if he never asked right and so after that then the guy was like probably should ask for just x and right any deal all i do if this guy's is giving it to me voluntarily i probably should ask for it we're gonna talk about today is collectible and the reason why jack is here is because jack sold wen is it two years now or a year ago yes for about year one year but prior to that he wasn't working there he left and has had a lot of free time like three years of free time four years with the free time and what jack does is it his hobby is so weird he just like buys and reviews tons of stuff and he definitely returns a lot of it but he just could he just consumes information and he and he loves trying new products like he's up so like i'm for his birthday recently his wife and me and a couple buds she got we went to tahoe and she got him a cake that was an amazon box like that's what he's famous for is like just buying stuff and for my wedding the gift that he got sarah and i was he wrote two or three pages and he said this is the best soap for black women's hair this is the best low sugar gummy bears this is the best foot cream this is the best towel because it has copper in it and copper prevents and like explain and so he bought like probably a thousand dollars worth it just gadgets that were his best so he just reviews everything and the his latest kick is collectible hold on before we go to the collectible because that's amazing intro jack why do you do this this is so funny that you do this like i mean sam is exaggerating a thing about like best shampoo for black people here but like you got it her dude you got her damn yep it was like the best shampoo in general like it doesn't matter that it's made african americans well she's black and i thought that you being thoughtful you got her like i don't know i just got her get but it's just like if i'm buying something like a backpack then i wanna have the best backpack right i'll just buy ten of them trying them out and then we turned nine and and were you always this way like you're like i got it because i remember even in product hunt launch i think you were the number one person on product hunt and you were like a successful busy dude at this point but you were like just like kind of these rand on product but you were like all over you were on every you had the number one most hunted products or something crazy too so have you been this way for a long time so i think product time is similar with the collectible thing in terms of just like i joined when they only had a couple of hundred users and so it's like identifying something nascent and then seeing if there's obviously when things are small there's more opportunities around because there's lost of competition product hunch just joined early and then as you said i was kind of posting every day i basically built a bot to post to it nowadays you can schedule a post but then you couldn't so i just built a bot to schedule a post each day but i was still kind of manually involved having reviewing products but it was kinda just fun to be seeing what's new i just like trying out more stuff because then i feel that is when there's like opportunities okay and i called you a few weeks ago maybe a month ago now sure because i had this very interesting collectible situation and i i didn't even know you were into collectible honestly i just called you because i said jack's really really clever and i think for this business opportunity it's a you either out clever or you don't do it at all and so i just thought only talked to the most clever guy no and it turned out that you were like super heavy into the collectible space you start talking me all these interesting things and now you can we'll talk about and then anything you don't wanna talk about we can just cut afterwards that's no no problem just pull it back but basically let's start with what i learned on that call okay so i call jack and i say hey jack i don't know if you know anything about the collectible space and you were kind of of course understated did you were yeah i know a bit which really was like i know everything you know you don't know shit and you were like yeah i no bit and i said you know there's this opportunity to buy this multi million dollar collection for like kinda ten cents on the dollar but i would don't know what i would do with i don't know how i would flip it how would you flip this and what you told me was like okay there these platforms out there these new emerging platforms for collectible like rally road like otis and you said i've been using these and in fact here's are some of the things i learned from this conversation jack is not only an investor in a couple of these platforms he is the number one probably power user of all these platforms you it's flight product all over again you are all over these platforms while they are small you're probably the most active user on the platform buying and selling stuff you have a full operation in the philippines kinda like helping you you know like a machine work the system not so tell us what you could tell us about this stuff sure yeah i mean as you said like the ceo of master works just like they were randomly and me just like sent me an email like hey come chat and then we got on the call and this like dude what are you doing we're looking at the logs as many orders later the time they're like chuck to and then i just told them like hey i have these guys in philippines like three dollars an hour i just placed some pittsburgh because they were like yeah because we were pretty confused like this guy who sold his company is he just bored in hawaii that he's just the log onto our platform twenty four seven like bidding on stuff so they were big confused they they think you're like a virus yeah or they were just trying to figure out like dude for are you actually trying to do like how can we help you because this is not good use of your time to right but it's just as you highlighted like emerging platforms there's kind of diff different arbitrage opportunities somewhat and what i've seen is so from speaking i've spoken to like the founding teams of these different platforms i believe i'm like they don't wanna confirm that you said you're the number one or number two use probably in terms of like assets under management there because they're so small it's not that hard to be their biggest user right what i learned as while speaking to these some of these others is that you've kind of got a few different users that are using these platforms the majority of whom would fit into they're calling in stocks is just like the robinhood hood users that just don't care about valuation and they're just buying stuff just because it sounds cool you know so kinda what they're saying about stocks with robyn is what the most users in collectible are doing as well and then you actually it seems like you have sophisticated collectible people more sophisticated me i don't know anything about what these things are actually worth you're actually seeing a pretty strong the market seems to be working there like assets that undervalued they jump to being valued what they may should be so for example there's this pokemon card collection that launched maybe like six months ago and then now the platform got an offer that pay someone actually wants to buy the collection four x the price they listed it at and actually what they do is they let the people that own that piece they vote should we sell or should we not and that she voted not to sell and now it's trading at like six x the price and so i speaking to have founder one of the other platforms and he's like yeah that piece was undervalued somehow people that are really into pokemon cards obviously have found a platform and found this on the undervalued and now they've kind of bidding it up to what it kind of should value that how about we structured this conversation this way so first all let we gotta get background here which is last week sean brought up psa what's psa stand for does that important i don't even know sports yeah it's a it's a support card it was a a company that grades sports cards right they agreed not just sports cards they'll grade other cards as well they were doing i looked it up there they're doing about eighty million in revenue twenty million in profit publicly traded company and then this guy named nat turner alongside steve cohen steve cohen is the guy who was inspired the tv show billions or partially he owns them not a big ten billionaire and then a couple other folks nat turner is a tech guy who's very wealthy now and they bought this company and i actually don't know what they're gonna do with it maybe just like make it cooler anyway sean brought this up and it was very interesting and we're like alright let's do a whole episode just un collectible so for this conversation how about we structure it like this let's just go through some of the interesting platforms and some of the big winners and some of the trends in this collectible space so that sound good well and to highlight how i got into it is that i actually started looking at the collecting stuff based on the because i was listening a bit to the podcast that sam you did with gary b and you know you just kept asking him like what's the best opportunity and he just kept him saying sports cards and then you're were like yeah yeah but what else is interesting and he just like can't think i just false card is the only decent thing as i'm like okay well if he's going into that heavily then maybe might i'm interesting and so actually how i started is i again with people in the philippines i just bought my own collection of five hundred or so trading cards like individual ones and i'm storing them but then i was like this is like so much work trying to research what the actual fair evaluation for card is and doing all the accounting for it and then listing it to sell so even though i did actually buy and flip some cards for a profit myself i'm like this is kind of loads of work and then i found that there's these fractional ownership platforms and so they're basically doing all the work and then they basically bring you like hey this any collectible about summer are trading cards like here's a really valuable card it's worth a hundred thousand dollars but users can buy like twenty five dollar pieces of it let's talk about rally road because i think that's actually the one the coolest one sean do you know rally road yes so so i'll give you kind of the two second i'll give you the lay version of rally road so rally road is a platform that's letting you invest in what they call alternative assets and these are things like it could be a vintage car it could be a michael jordan rookie card it could be a pokemon collector set that's you know unopened and you know they'll put it up and it'll be thousands of dollars and then light jackson saying you could do the sort of fractional ownership component where i can i don't have to buy the full collection but i can invest in that asset in the same way you know i could buy shares of apple i can buy shares of tesla that's the way that rally works is that the i capture the main bits there jack i leave anything important now one of the main bets is that it the way they've designed it is maybe like tinder and robin hood neck they're basically made a game it's extremely unified and addictive and awesome that basically they'll just be like alright we're dropping this asset like they do a drop kind of like an ipo you buy in and then basically that asset is locked up for three months and then they'll basically trade each cha once a quarter but only for one day and so they're like alright this asset is trading that day so basically they're kind of compressing all the demands also into one day and then it's really ga five because when they drop the ipo is they're like are selling out and it sells out in like under a minute so like unless you're on the app at that time you miss out it's really ga five and they don't actually have that many products i think they have like dozens of products on there right like they have like a they have a few it's blown up a lot recently it's got a lot more recently well as of recently they had like dozens and it was like a million dollar ferrari to a like a babe baseball card harry potter or first edition so it was kind of a random collection but it was all so cool looking they make it look so cool it's the chicago bulls six championship rings from michael jordan's run it's a complete set of six rings and i just click notify me when this goes live because it's you know valued at three hundred thousand dollars and you can own a piece of the michael jordan kinda dynasty championship rings that they have and this has raised about thirty million dollars they're based in new york very interesting company so one of a bit as well is that i think a lot of their users they're not doing anything about valuation up they just wanna own a piece maybe they support that sports team and they're like oh wow i can own a piece of that ring thing so what they do is when you invest they also sometimes they give sometimes they actually sell memorabilia associated to it so you can get like a share certificate being like i own a piece of right something you could put on your wall at home because otherwise you have nothing to show for it right that's that's how when i used to go buy like an autograph basketball that's gonna sit in my office and people are gonna see it and you lose that value you gain a lot of convenience but you lose that value when you use one of these platforms so it's really smart think they're doing a bunch of really smart things so i'll give you some examples of what's smart so the things jack talked about where they kinda game fight it i think it's really smart because in any marketplace like a marketplace all about liquidity and early on you have pretty poor liquidity in the marketplace so by compressing it where it's only gonna ipo for one day and it's only gonna trade one day a quarter you're compressing all of the whatever little supply and demand you have gets like aggregated into a short time window so it actually feels like you have high liquidity during that period so i think that's that's really important that also creates you know fo and it builds high and it drives a drive more demand which is another way to fill the marketplace is by sort of manufacturing or amplifying the demand that already exists for it so i think that's like a really smart business and product decision that i honestly don't think these businesses would work if you didn't do that at the early stage where are they storing all this stuff jack because i you were toy around with this idea of doing this like what's it called the free port or is that what it's called the what it's called in the art world there's different rules for art and other assets have other rules so the free stuff is specifically to art so it depends on the platform but what let's say otis for example is doing they're they're just storing their stuff they're actually outsource it they're just storing it in a normal collectible vault they're actually using p which is what i store my cards in what the is a company that does their own grading but they're not really reputable like psa so they're kinda just not that reputable for grading but they grade stuff and they're the largest auction house for trading cards so it's kind of like the whatever the big art auction houses are they are that for sports cards but then as well they're in somewhere maybe it's texas or somewhere that basically doesn't have any sales tax and then there was news articles about it they spent three million dollars building a vault in the basement of their office kind of like a bank vault and so they can store trading cards for as well so they're kind of a all services shop grading storage listing it on their own auction house or ebay and they also do lines of credit against your collection which i can talk about more but i'm otis and stuff store their trading cards there however some of the places like master works actually have their own art gallery and are doing their own storage in new york because one of the aspects they wanted and raleigh road does this for some of their cars is pre coronavirus they're tougher now they wanted that their users come and see the assets they own like hey come and see the car and you can tell your buddy like i own twenty five dollars of this car but you can see it in real life for real life museum mark gallery so if i was gonna invest in these companies i think if i was gonna rank them psa would have been number one because i think that they have the dominance of there they're the cert so they're they become the king makers and obviously the demand as far out stripped their ability to fulfill so jack give people a sense of like you send something to be graded by psa roughly what does that cost roughly what's the turnaround time right now which i think is kind of shows the opportunity that they have well you say opportunity they have but they're like the dinosaur en incumbent you know so it doesn't just because they've got the opportunities doesn't mean someone else can come up and grab it psa basically all of the collectors respect their grading but this is because they have decades long reputation in history of being the market leader there's actually a competitive company called beckett which is they were head and head but then basically beckett here maybe even like a decade ago i'm not super expert on this but this is what i remember they basically had a scandal where some like professor had been like doctor cards he would just like take a knife and like cup edges like he was like really precise and then it kind of got exposed that he had been doctor them and beckett upgraded them like oh these are ten out ten amazing and so basically all the collective side boycott them and like we don't trust their ratings so psa is like the only one that people trust because of these decades long reputation so if someone new comes up they're not gonna respect them because they don't have a history and track record i don't know if i would invest in them now because i'm not sure how much growth potential there is you know there it's a decades old one so but to answer your question right now apparently they have a massive backlog like four to six weeks or something and basically the price that you paid to have your card graded varies is based on what you estimate is actually worth so they have different price brackets like if your card is think it's worth over five thousand then you have to pay more i think the cheapest is something like twenty five fifty dollars yeah i i think it might go down as all as ten but but yeah they have like kind of like a three month backlog right now and i think that the opportunity for them would be you have the brand and the trust can use technology to drive you know more velocity more volume and and make more money right no i think they have the def but they don't have the innovation yet the other thing that i think there's p ever since you told me about that i really like what they're doing can you talk about the lending thing that you're doing with them i thought think that was really smart yeah so i actually i've only got a small amount of money here but this for me is like a really good safer side of investment opportunity so right now like my wealth for advisor and stuff like typically wildfires will want you to just buy bonds as running are safe but then even though they've tried explaining to me like multiple time bubbles i still don't get what the hell they are and i'm just like these are so boring because they want you to just put your money in that and then it's like oh this will go up to four percent a year and it's tax free so this is so boring and i don't even get what i'm investing in that it's like california walk to supply bond but i'm like i don't understand it so p have this lending program which basically how it works is as i said let's say sean you have a collection of a thousand trading cards and you're storing them at p now p when you sent them the cards they like were able to grade them and because they're their largest auction house they have all the data about how much your card is really worth like they're monitoring a real time you know so they basically know have a very accurate idea about how much your trading card is collection is worth so be like your collections is worth like fifty thousand dollars according to us they also are storing in your collection so they actually have your asset in their possession and so they'll say like hey listen your worth fifty thousand dollars i'll give you a line of credit because you need to buy house or something so i'll give you a line of credit of like fifty percent of the value of your collection so i'll give you like a loan of twenty five thousand dollars and they're gonna charge you pretty high interest on that because you can do the loan just for like one month or something right so it's about ten percent a year interest but this is like way safer than normal loans because like normally a bank giving you a loan you're banking on like your pay paychecks whereas you might just lose your job or like a mortgage i've never seen your house and it could get blown up by a storm or something versus or you could just run away but p they own your trading card collection they have custody right yeah they they've got custody and so basically me as a lender i can lend money against that training card collection and it basically calls all of the users so basically what for me as a lender i put in let's say two hundred and fifty thousand dollars that i'm lending and p will lend spread that across all the loans that they have and there i get paid like nine percent a year interest that is taxed income so it's the highest tax so you know up to fifty percent interest so it's not the most lucrative thing you're looking at a stable nine percent before tax maybe five percent after tax however it seems very safe to me and it's stable income because they've been doing this program for ten years they've never had anyone default if someone did default as in like they gave them a loan the guys refused to pay back p would just sell their trading card collection they know how much is worth they only gave a loan against fifty percent of the value anyway so the training question should be more than enough value if f wasn't enough to pay back your debt then they use all of the other collection of trading cards they have because it's a pooled it's not you're not only doing a loan to one user that you're investing in all of them one what's your current net worth is in what percent is in these alternative assets asset maybe ten percent that's a substantial amount right for that's a lot i view these loans as like a separate asset class to owning for me i view this as like fixed income basically i'm just getting a check the mail every month yeah that's true but to a normal person like to my parents your parents they're like jack this is kinda strange the falls on that category of alternative right but you're saying ten percent is just a collectible part not the lending part yeah well i mean the lending have only really started with it so i i only have a small yeah so right now you do rally road which is base which is everything baseball cards cars boxing gloves or whatever you do master works which is basically you can buy a portion of a picasso you can buy it it's high end art what's otis it's very similar to rally road it's kind of a mix between rally road and master works they high end art that also high end collectible what's mythic markets it's more like niche they're figuring out there that one of the fifth the smallest player i think they're figuring out the positioning it guys them the feedback some of their stuff is like so niche it's just targeting people that play magic the gathering like they have like this painting of a card from magic at the gathering i'm like what the fuck is that don't know what the hell is like body road is awesome because your parents would know most of the assets on there and be like alright that's pretty unique they have like the joystick controller that they used for the nasa mission that landed on the moon or they have the first edition signed harry potter like everyone knows this stuff but then mythic markets has like some stuff there's kinda of decent some stuff that's just like oh this is the highest value card in myth in magic the gathering it's like this plant i'm like what the is that like what what other categories interest you because i have a few that i i'm thinking about do you have any that you're like there needs to be a marketplace for this or this is a category that i think is gonna pop in the next five years well kind of value road is trying to be the platform with all of those they have a different tabs all of the assets they have wine all of these they they don't have art but there isn't really much of an asset class in terms of collectible i could think of that i guess one i haven't seen is maybe like currencies like unique currencies or historical artifacts from like dinosaur bones or something that's interesting do you guys know i actually don't how to pronounce it even though like go do it all the time is it called hud hud it's the waffle one yeah it's how do you i don't even how to pronounce it it's one of those words that you like read it all the time and i yeah h key or a hud yeah yeah they just sold a majority of stake so basically it's a weird company i don't know if it's considered a media company or an e company but they started out by just blogging about watches now they sell special edition watches and i believe in bra you'll have to double check i believe they just sold on friday or thursday last week and i think they sold for about a hundred million dollars and they're doing twenty million in revenue but basically the idea and i i'm a very low collector of watches it's i'm very new to it but it's for like roll you know high end rolex xs and things like that and i noticed that when i went to go and buy i bought two i own two rolex xs from the eighties seventies and if you wanna buy an older submarine they are so hard to find right now watches i mean they've always been popular but louis vuitton bought this company which is an interesting signal well also they also had an interesting background because they were company that had been going for many years and then kevin rose who's fan of gig and stuff he had raised maybe like five or ten million like a startup studio but he was kind of messy man with ideas and he didn't really know what to work on and so he just like merged with the ancient company and then just kinda made them like sexy with ceo for like a year or two than quit and then so maybe they just made them like more tech respectful to that's i think that's an interesting category is watches i think so they're growing you know a lot of young celebrities john mayer like cool people are like super into them i think that's categories and can actually get a lot bigger i think the categories is hard because like jack was saying i think that the larger the most popular platforms will do well as they could just add your category fashion and you can become large there might be some exceptions like i was looking at a company to invest in that's comic book space and they have like a good reputation in the comic space they are you know well known in that community they already have relationships with all the kind of brick and mortar stores and so you know they might be able to get to escape velocity and let's say the comic book world which would maybe have a different population i think that for the most part there's the opportunities in this are look a little bit different so there's things like san do bernardino nba top shot the game you paid the bar no that's pop a shot so top shot is a new collectible type of thing you know the guys who started crypto kitties do you remember crypto kitties yeah i was like a joke that turned into like a huge huge thing on act it yeah kind of so they pivoted to something called maybe nba a top shot or that's what they focus on now don't know they fully pivoted or what but what it is is it's a crypto based thing these are called n entities non fungi tokens meaning like for bitcoin all bitcoin are the same bitcoin or your bitcoin you can't tell the difference but like for a collectible like mine and yours are two distinct things and there may be only ten of mine in existence right so that's what n entities are the blockchain now allows for people to build n based things and so what these guys did was they they initially made crypto which was a a collectible of these different types of kitties that they made and they kinda went viral because it's kinda funny and goofy and whatever and gonna it kinda faded it out but what they're doing is they made a tops shop is they licensed they partner with the nba and they licensed out moments highlights basically so you open up a pack and instead of getting a player's card you get lebron dunking in two thousand nine on the against the atlanta magic this one awesome dunk yet and you get that and they basically say that there are four hundred of these highlights in these moments these top shots in existence you got one of them and that's in your collection now they tried to turn instead of a static trading card they're saying of this video moment that's five seconds long from you know the nba mba that's actually like that they they sort of artificially create the scarcity around it by saying they'll only be this many of this moment ever created that bullshit to me right well everyone's had a different opinion that i don't know i've opened up one package just to see what it was like and and actually ben ben you should ben's all the call too ben you should tell about the top shot you just opened and your reaction to it yeah i opened a pack and i got a cam reddish dunk for like thirty dollars i don't know if you guys know me that is he's like a sub par nba player and i was like i was like how the fuck is this gonna be worth any anything fucking at any point this is kinda odd to me i'm on it right now there's don't suffer for two three hundred dollars the reason that i wouldn't be bullish on this is because they are the ones claiming that these are valuable and facilitating in the trading like in the basketball don't or the collectible world it kind of works because the grading authority saying how scarce something is is independent of the producers that are making the basketball stuff so psa is the one saying this is valuable we have the data like if you're just creating i otherwise you could just give a value to every clip on youtube right like and also just collecting clips i think is i can see why you would talk yourself into the idea and why it would sound cool a pitch deck but in practice support i don't think it's like well so one thing that i do think would be interesting actually sorry interject china so i don't think that this like virtual asset on the blockchain is interesting to me right now is too early and these assets the video clip has no underlying value but i would be interested to see otis or rally road or a competitor put physical collectible yes on a blockchain so then i could own like let's say they could just token assets so then a michael jordan training card i would have it as a coin and then i could send it to my friends to coin or like sell it on then you could have like multiple trading platforms you know then independence that could be kinda interesting physical collectible on does rally or anyone do they let you send send a fraction to a friend gift no okay that's kinda interesting so i would say okay one opportunity is these guys who were trying to basically say okay shit all the traditional collectible they're already on traditional platforms so let's create a new collectible right that's what they're trying to do with this like moments thing now may it may work alley so i just add sean actually otis is doing one bit like that otis is doing collaborations so they're doing like otis x some die they haven't done that well so thoroughly to be honest because again they're kind of creating a collectible just for otis there's no data on what is that value is then there's another kind of like angle here which is like making it easier right so one of the problems when i was looking at buying this collection was like i was shit i don't know what any of this is worth you know i'd have to send it into going integrated that's kind of expensive and then you know we we looked at for example there's a couple of apps that are doing what what are called live breaks sam do you know what these are yes and you talked about it last week and people on youtube are doing it i looked up this i watched this logan paul video ten million views of him opening a a deck of cards and then there's this another other guy named is his named pac man i think his name is and it's a channel with two million subscribers and all he does is opens packs of cards yeah it's crazy and this also happens on twitch there's this guy castro who does this on fifa fifa is not even collectible right just like within the game there's these micro transactions and every kid kinda like begging their mom like can i can get some coins so i can buy more fifa packs and the mom's like what already watching the game what are you talking about but like the games have started building in these micro transactions so this guy will just buy like four grand worth of packs and just open them for three hours and while he's opening them people are subscribing and donating to them so he can keep it going and like for a kid it's like the dream it's like dude what if my mom gave me three thousand dollars and i could just buy all the diamond packs and like they could just they just watch him do it instead because that's like the closest to ever it so i think that's kind of interesting thing it's interesting that it's interesting to people watch open but i was on one of these so there's loop which is lo p that's for sports card live break so it's like a live stream like a periscope or a twitch stream but what it is is it's a table and the guys if you push the buy button the guy will open up the package you just bought and you'll see the whole group will together we'll see what you got inside and then there's whatnot which is doing this for pokemon cards it's basically non sports and they're doing quite well and so i was looking at these i was like okay that's cool problem is again if this guy's opening this pack i don't really know enough like a collector will know oh my god that's a rare card that was worth three hundred sixty dollars that you just got it would take me like a three day process to figure out what i really got and what it's worth i was curious to see have people done the thing i don't know if you know this check have people done the thing where they kind of like use like an iphone app kinda like that plant scanner app that basically just lets you just hold up your phone to a card you own and it tells you like this is this card it's worth between this and this depending on how it got graded could send it in to go get great and like find out if it's the thirty dollar version or the three hundred dollar version do you know if something like david is this because i think that technology has been used for plant identification bird identification like you know math problem solving i don't see why they couldn't do that with cards well actually had been a by approach by a couple of users in the trends facebook group that are working on business ideas in the trading card space and one of them is looking to build an iphone app that will try and use ai and stuff to give you their opinion about the grade as well so kind of doing that and grading it that they would maybe grade it for a dollar instead of twenty five dollars right obviously this is just their opinion but you could maybe have a rough idea so one of the reasons i think that's interesting is because there's a lot of people out there that just have a collection from when they were a kid when this was not a money making and they're just like for the hell of it let's just do what happens yeah they have a bunch and like they're not gonna go spend ten dollars a card to send it into psa right that's way too extreme you know are they really gonna spend the time to list each point on ebay and then like fulfill it and whatever like i think that's kind of like interesting so so i think there's a latent demand if you could just aggregate my friend xavier did this with books where he just got people to just send in old books that they didn't want and it's like it's a social impact project but like he would sell the books and then he would as called better roll books and he would sell he he created a marketplace like amazon to sell the books all the books he was getting for free all he had to do is just receive mail from people and libraries and stuff and then he would also donate books on their behalf to you know libraries and need so i think somebody could do that if you could get everybody to go into their garage or their attic and go get their card collection and just mail you all their shit and if you had an efficient way to like scan those i think that could be a somewhat interesting opportunity kind of like the junk the jump it's this pile i always get caught up in this shit because i'm like alright jack's talking he's got a large potentially maybe millions of dollars involved in this but he set himself that he knows nothing about sports cards it's so odd though that you've got these people that are creating like the end of the day there's gotta be someone who wants to buy this just to hold on to it and look at it or hang it on their wall isn't it it so weird how this market is being created around people who actually aren't fans of it well i think that's the beauty of it right this is just like bitcoin or many other things which is that the value is in the belief of it at so if some people want it for the tangible use the same way some people want gold for jewelry right they wanna put it on the wall they wanna look at it and they wanna think fuzzy thoughts about michael jordan every time they see it and other people like jack are just saying oh here's a scarce asset here's a rare asset that i can put some percentage of my net worth into and i see the trends of where this stuff is trading and i know that not more is being produced and it's a safe store of value for me i don't think my will definitely question what is it down safe so for example let's say that you have a card of a guy and tomorrow he says something racist or he raped someone or he dies or like let's say happens in nba this guys get injured right and their card value goes down yeah like what happens if jordan does something tomorrow he has a o j simpson moment where it's like oh my god you are not a good guy you're a bad guy something crazy happens does that mean when they die when they die the poor goes up four x right overnight jack's waiting for these guys to die i wayne cr is but i can't wait till that guy they say any new any any news is good news right if he sits on racist it gets banned or whatever it makes his car more valuable like o j simpson cards are really valuable yeah it also happens right because right now all these rookie cards for like luca dah or nfl got joe burrow he was a rookie here's the number one pick his card was worth x he got hurt you like blew out his knee in a recent game his card value went down by about fifty percent a whole bunch people are buying because they're like look i believe in joe ver over the fifteen years this is my opportunity to put it's kind of like a growth asset then i'm trying to pick a bet because i think i get a four x multiple on this if i'm right and that game of being right and wrong i think is what makes it fun just like you know many ways people do that with stock market right it's like i love listening to mob stories and i was i fell all on youtube all these guys who are in the mob and they're are like yeah two things would happen first of all we would take so much money for sports game and in the seventies and eighties you know the athletes weren't making as much and so they were able like we were able to bribe them or the athletes were notorious gambler and we getting into debt with us and we would say alright make sure that you this happens next game so we could bet money on it i wonder if you're gonna see anything like that going on because this is like one of the very few assets i guess you could do this with stocks although there's way more regulation around it but there's one of the few assets that it seems like you gonna you can meaningfully manipulate so you're highlighting good things so actually otis their tagline is they wanna be the nasdaq of everything however unlike the nasdaq nasdaq causes all these regulations that you can't do inside a trading and stuff here is the wild west like anything goes there's no insider of trading rules or whatever like that's why there's also a opportunity because it's so new there's no rules yet jack if jack wanted to could partner up with three other people and could pump you could pump and dump like all day probably on these assets because there's not enough volume that's what i'm saying can move you could take ten million dollars probably and you could move markets and just profit every single time you do because of that the same way people did this with ico kind of like at least shit coins in two thousand seventeen two thousand eighteen there's this famous episode from on entourage at tv show on entourage and i'm not a baseball guy so i'm not gonna remember this but there was a baseball player in the sixties and seventies with the yankee is sunny something i don't know maybe you guys know and one of the guys on entourage was like hey my grandpa's paul's neighbors with x player they say he's really really sick he's about to die and so they go and buy his car for two hundred fifty thousand dollars and then they're like oh my grandpa said that he recovered and they're like they're like shit and they lose all this buddy it what what's you i hope talking about the famous yeah i i don't i don't remember it but anyway it was it like i'm afraid of that happening in terms of the tampering or start sort of like the mob i mean as sports betting is the way better way to go about it if you wanted to do it right betting on a game and getting somebody to shave points of throw is is much easier than like d capita or killing somebody for their card value right so i think sports betting is a much bigger market would be much easier to tamper with now there is of course risk right if there was no risk there would be no reward so the risk that you're talking about are the risks that go associated with this i that's like okay i wanna bring up two other things that are interesting i probably should live with this one which is ebay sandy c by the way sandy sandy okay that's sonny c i i'm i'm so not a baseball guy i know he's like a big deal so ebay announced today that they had a a new program which is interesting and with it they released some new news so the program i'll say was really simple it's like if you're selling a trading card that's worth twenty dollars or less value now they guaranteed that you can mail it for a dollar envelope guaranteed by usps which is like seventy percent less than it would normally cost so it's it's really helpful for for sending you know the buying and selling and trading cards the reason they did this and they announced this number is because in twenty twenty bay ebay which is still the biggest platform that all these other guys are trying to un bundle did forty five million cards sold in twenty twenty if you just take an average of twenty dollars just nine hundred million of gm just on trading cards let alone any other type of collectible that's sold on ebay right so that's the like the size of the prize i would say is probably that or double that if you just add everybody else up they probably add up to you half of what ebay or something like that so let's say it's one point five billion in gm is kind of like where this market is today not the biggest market but also much bigger than you know the average person would expect it you know about like pokemon cards and garbage bill kids and baseball cards and stuff like that so i think that was pretty interesting to see the scale that ebay has on this stuff and they're being really aggressive now because they know that they already like messed up with sneakers sneakers got taken away by stock and goat and stuff like that and so if you go on reddit right now every reddit ad i see is ebay talking about how you can trade sports cards easily on on ebay you could trust them and it's gonna be hard for them to fight off all these competitors they've also been featuring on their homepage trading cards for quite a long time so you know they're pushing that to every for so that visits the own by each of ebay here's another opportunity or here's another idea that i've seen that i actually really like so what are the opportunities people trying to stretch so there's rally road and others who we're trying to be the marketplace they're trying to be ebay then you have people are trying to create new collectible moments or items that's like bay top shop and then you have people that are what call making the on ramp easier so that's kinda what i saying where was like if even if i bought a packet it wouldn't know what the hell it's worth so there's a company that we i talked to yesterday about potentially investing called bib and actually d i b s dot i i'll tell you funny story about the pitch it had like every red flag you can imagine during the pitch i hope the guys on listen day i feel bad if i do but like i gotta say it was hilarious pitch she's he's like a nice guy but he's like yeah i'll tell you the five red flags red flag number one he's like oh my background is you know was doing social media marketing i was like that's like to me like i know that type of person so you have abs yeah he's like good looking funny had apps and i was like okay already i don't wanna invest you're too good looking for second thing was oh yeah i live in colombia well i live in med and i was like yeah why do you live in colombia i i don't i don't wanna know the story you're like okay that's already like in american living in colombia american living in columbia you do you have an ico under belt yes so that's the next thing oh my god spent the last three years doing marketing for random ico oh my god i just predicted this does the have a ferrari okay very close very close so there's two other words what was i can't say is don't wanna totally totally bash guy because it's just for jokes but his name is the name of a city and his partner's name is like this total white guy name who lives in santa monica and i was like oh god these names i can't even deal with these names and then the last piece let's he had posted a stocking on instagram during the call totally and he had posted like this video of like grant card was like grant card is man i love grant card i aspire to be like him one day i was like you know no faster grant card i think see is kind of interesting but like anybody who admire him that like i'm like okay that's the sort of like level of depth you have around kind of your you know who you are what you admire in many ways and so like for people who are like gary v is the most brilliant businessman i've ever met and it's like you know she's just so inspirational i'm like okay that's cool like i'm glad he's inspiring you but you that's one specific type of like celebrity entrepreneur maybe for that to be your hero this thing always protect all the boxes made but the the idea is actually really good so one thing i really liked that they're doing an idea is that you just buy into a player so how do you make this so approachable for the average person so you just say hey you think lebron is awesome or let's say let's take an up and coming player like yan or luca you know these like nba players were still young in their career you say oh you believe in luca you could just buy into the luca collection so they're turning players into like their own little etf of a collection of cards that are associated with that player so you don't have to know that this is a nineteen you know or sorry like a twenty ten rookie card of this mint grade from this base set collection that's never gonna get reproduced or whatever right you don't have to know all that you just have to buy into the player at a certain price point and you know that it's collateral by the underlying card assets so i think that's actually like a kind of a smart idea to let people buy into these kinda like known entities and not have to know the science underneath underneath what they're doing so i like that idea of making it more approachable well i mean the idea that i was having on this call i i was just thinking you could abstract a step further like if you get someone who actually knows financial markets they could just launch an actual etf on new york stock exchange so i would just start with but one you could just have alternative assets as an etf just have it so broad but then going in deeper then you could hurt just have sports cards or art because like actually one guy i know he's just launched an etf bitcoin in egypt and africa region and europe you can't trade it in us for some reasons but he's just making bunch of money just made an et etf for bitcoin how easy is it to make etf because i know people are trying this for bitcoin in the us and just getting blocked but i don't know don't do in the us just a bitcoin regulation shooting in columbia holler your boy yeah guy i that was the that was the other one he's like oh yeah we we used the blockchain i was like oh lot he used the blockchain he's was like sort of our secret sauce i don't really wanna talk about it and i was like wow okay hot san diego that's his damn hot san diego does it doesn't know his shit okay so you could launch so so jack you know how long this guy i was working on launching a etf in egypt whatever you just said well you can do it's quite big actually and you can trade it in he's in egypt but then it's basically you just can't do it in the us because of some rules but basically what you i don't know how long it takes i would guess maybe like six to twelve bumps or something but basically what you can also do is the simpler thing how these things often start is you there's etfs and then there's indexes so indexes you can't actually trade against they are just a way of tracking but then basically people can create etfs that like mirror and index so there's probably already an index for the art world just create an etf allows it to be t you could do this in europe so i was looking at so this company that's behind this stuff is called pan and pine is a european company and what ended up happening i was like why does this european company make all the basketball cards and what happened was ben was like a billion dollar company back in two thousand nine so like that they're doing a billion dollar revenues it's probably worth a bit more than that and they were big in the space in soccer i believe and in europe and i don't know the full history but what happened is was they came to the us and they out tops and upper deck for the basketball rights so they got the the nba rights they out them and so all the basketball cards that are like super super hot right now like that's probably like the most bought into card collection right now is basketball cards and they're all by this company called pry you know the the cards are by prism prism is owned by penny for needing a maker of it and so i don't know how long these rights work but they got basketball they got hockey they got for baseball they got like a certain type of right where they can't show the player in uniform they can show like something else but they were basically pretty aggressive and they they out those guys and so i think you could do potentially an etf in europe where you have to have the belief in alternative assets and maybe the regulation is looser there so i like that this could be like the way cha off and these guys are making like a hundred million dollars per spec this could be like that is that how much you making by the way more than that dude i think he's making like a hundred million dollars or more per back and he's doing twenty six specs they get like twenty percent of the caps raised as the manager and some of these are like entrepreneurs is i just had another idea so basically the opposite of that kitty cards thing whatever i think lots of stuff is going virtual but i think there just is intrinsic value in physical the more stuff goes virtual and virtual that's why i've i'm bullish about physical stuff like harry potter stuff stored in a vault is you're preserving a time capsule like physical isn't important i just had another idea a bit more niche but couldn't they just create trading card physical trading cards but for like sports players so there's a couple of companies that are doing this sports the more popular version of it actually because sports players themselves are actually not that popular but the idea of like an it youtuber slash twitch streamer which is basically yeah the subset of either really good player who actually gets famous yeah because otherwise sports players kinda like this nameless face it's won't be hard for people know about them there's a company called l m a o so what i saw this come out and i thought this was interesting or or l a m o lam lam cards or dot codes they're what they're doing as dolls twos is another one that's making these little collectible dolls that are on either memes or or influencers and what lob did was they partnered with the four biggest twitch streamers and the way they did this was they gave a piece of the company to the agency that manages it or the agents they managers inc incubator at this company i'm not fully sure what what the deal was but there was this agency called loaded and what loaded did was they said hey we represent ninja who's the number one streamer in the world also doctor disrespect also summit and lyric and what these guys did was they made this collectible little figurine green i actually figure basically of each of those streamers they actually sell them in physical stores they did a a activation at like comic con where they built like a six foot tall version of it put it outside and said scan your phone on this like put your hold your phone up to this and they put a qr code on the body said that when you held it up on your camera and launch their website and said this is coming soon and it also was like an ar thing like when you were holding your phone up to it actually figure like came to life like a performer and had like smoke coming out and whatever it was like buy this thing coming soon pretty intense it didn't take off as big as i thought it would have but i don't think that that's a bad idea i would still go after that if i could because it's the same idea right look what's the difference between lebron and ninja at this point right both of them have twenty million followers and you know armies of thirteen year old who think that their gods could you turn that into a physical trading card asset and license their brand and likeness probably in a way that you could never do with sports because it's all too it's done already point is anyone doing like income share agreements for twitch people no you're someone much son's language like someone is just a brand new streamer and you know you joined together to give them a hundred thousand dollars because you think they're gonna be massive and then in exchange they give you twenty five percent of their next five years income so there's two things that are like this they're interesting one is some people have tried to copy the k pop models so this is how k pop works right in korea which is they they basically say okay come to our factory right we have a studio with cameras and lights you get to come into our accelerator like a y comb and we're gonna teach you how to build your brand and all this stuff but we get a piece of you and we get to represent you as your agency and i think that what like what what bts what's the called bts yeah a don't know bts came out of that maybe they did but that this a very common very popular thing in korea chris so some people tried that in the us to mixed results but the bigger version of this was actually the other day mister beast who's one of the probably the fastest growing youtuber are you guys familiar with mister beast yeah he does these videos and are like kind of just like random ass he likes give away five cars the people who need he'll go to a restaurant he'll tip twenty thousand dollars and just record the waiters reaction or he'll say he'll buy a lamborghini and tells four friends come here put your hand on the lamborghini and the last person to have their handle this lamborghini gets the lamborghini and he just filmed them forty eight hours and then someone has to go and then they you know like eventually they all fall asleep or whatever and one person's left so what he said was like you know there's all these up and coming channels that i think could make really good content i would love to do like an is like i'll promote you and you keep doing your thing i'll help you but i'll take you know ten fifteen percent of your your channels revenue this is like a pretty compelling idea because i think more than the you have to do it like an income share agreement where you're not just giving them capital you have to help them get the exposure and the same way that lambda will helps you get the job and have to trains you to learn how to code it's a little bit more than just the the money for a future money as a different scan in agent because mister beast can blow you up right so he can shout you out on his channel he can basically king make anybody who thinks has the wrong ingredients but what's the incentive for him to shout out these cool people well if he owned a piece of them like a if he had a portfolio of these open covers so he's not on the content treadmill every day he uses his following to put the next person on the treadmill and he just you know sits back and relaxes from there yeah i'm into all this shit i think that this is is we we're at the hour i think that this is i i wanna go work at rally road that's what i wanna do how far would it be to work at those places what type of returns are you seeing investing in these ip hosts when you think certain like i guess what's good what's normal is it super volatile what are you seeing not sure about blended returns and i'm doing this with a longer time horizon it it's kind of hard to quickly flip stuff but rally road has had some awesome exits in the past year so basically you can buy in at the ipo stage and then maybe someone off the platform is acquiring it or double all the price quadruple the price or you can just buy a bunch of shares during the ipo and then like flip them to someone else later you know the challenge is that you kind of have to have someone money to start with i think in the people if you're coming there not with much money like if you're claiming wanting by twenty five dollars worth i don't think you're gonna make much money because you're just like washed out by the whales they all all these platforms are having stuff like for me as a way or like they're doing like pre sales for me right i can just buy in before sees it jpmorgan does this or whoever we'll do this before in an ipo right they go to their big clients and they say hey you get the early bid on the ipo before door goes public or whatever i'm not sure about blended returns pretty low at the moment because i said looking gonna have a a few year horizon i mean hopefully because i don't have like a goal or you like a goal for ten twenty percent a year what is you say ten to twenty percent a year return i mean if something like an alternative asset you it should be paying outs size returns further risk are you doing it for that reason or are you're just doing it because you just wanna do it just both yeah it's kinda fun by the way ben just linked us this thing in the chat so after mister beast tweeted that out he then made a video saying get this per random a person a million subscribers on youtube and he just tagged this guy at z and if you go to z youtube channel now he has almost two million subscribers now thanks thanks to mister beast right so he just literally it's like if sop sequoia could invest in you and get you your first ten million da basically that that's basically what what he was able to do wow what is that the one that he got two million views what they called z z e a l o u s yeah i posted i'm not sure how many he had beforehand him but i think it a small account and he made a video about it like he made it into a contest i mean that just group with power i just got one other idea though is sam related to the who ding fe you were saying that are they a media company or earlier an investment company but kind of interesting to see like a media type company join tapped onto to rally road or something you know like well that's kind of what they are you know like a good example of this is hu berry hu is a weird store hu berry is a store that sells just like guy stuff so camping gear or guy clothes or outdoor stuff it's like rei but for like kinda yu guys and they tell the story behind the clothing and with rally rally road whenever i go to the stuff i'm a car fan so i like hearing the history of that car or i like hearing the history of that baseball card i wanna know the history around the and i actually do think that they do need to do a better job of telling the story because i used to work for this tv show called american picker and we had six or seven million viewers a week at the time when i work there we are number two on cable so it was the second most popular shown in the country and the guy mike wolf the main guy would go and tell the story behind a gas pump he would find a nineteen sixties gas pump and he would say this was created by mobile oil mobile oil made it this way because in world war two they didn't have enough supplies so they had to do that whatever and people would come in from around the world and they would buy this gas pump because of that story and they would pay a massive premium for it and i do think that a lot of these platforms that they need to do a much better job of telling us a story and if they could copy media company strategy of storytelling i think they'll have a significantly larger business and i think ben's said something about when was this someone's a newsletter for fractional assets what are your loans atlas insights they're they're basically a new new company they raise money right now they're trying the media approach in addition to having a as they say a stock market for physical things where basically you know a buy and sell platform for for collectible if somebody listening to and you're like okay yeah i don't know if shit about putting my cards or whatever one thing i would recommend is i've learned over time that what smart guys like jack kinda do as their hobby or where you start kicking the tires and it seems a little bit weird and it's kinda like laughable and you're like wait you know four years later that's gonna be the thing that's really interesting that like you're gonna wish you got in like this is how how crypto it was for me i kind of ignored it initially enough of my kind of really smart friends were dabbling with the stuff on the weekends and when they were dabbling with on the weekends that was a strong signal and actually i just went to my old old laptop and i found the bitcoin that i have stored on that laptop and the bitcoin i have from back then right i think i had taken like a two thousand and three thousand dollar budget i just been like okay i'm gonna buy some bitcoin and i bought a little bit of ethereum as well when that came out and that's not worth like almost a hundred grand and i don't know if that's gonna happen right like bitcoin was one of these things that pan out is sort of the investment of a decade but i would say just for a learning exercise i would go download rally in otis and and loop or one of these live breaking platforms as well and i would take like three hundred dollars right like go take like i don't know ninety days of coffee money like skip your daily coffee and like be like okay that's three hundred bucks and go like get a little bit of skin in the game just to learn how these platforms work and look at and then you'll once you skin in the game you'll start checking on it and you'll start learning a little bit about it and like then you decide later like if this is a good idea or bad idea whatever nine times out of ten it's not something you're gonna pursue but that's like the simple way to to get in and you don't have to take such a huge amount of money to to do it well this one went a little long we normally keep it at an hour but i think it's good this was fun anything else we wanna go over sean no i mean thanks jack for coming on jack is there anything else that we didn't talk about that we should have you learned by watching how the markets react over time that i've just seen like oh okay this spoke one thing it was available at this price and in now has gone up to this price and i would kinda just see how that markets move i mean one insight is for master works they have a minimum of ten thousand dollars per art because these are like five million dollar piece of art but what they do is they segment their users like gonna doing google and stuff they're like hey if you have over ten thousand dollars to spend go here if you don't then they direct them to the trading platform where you can buy a piece for like twenty dollars a piece and so actually what i'm observing on master works is that on our own average like every single piece on their platform none of them are trading below the ipo price basically if you bought you would not have lost money the challenges that they don't have much liquidity yet so you wouldn't be able to like sell all your shares all at once because ten thousand dollars with flood market right is kind of interesting observing on the countryside rally road each of their cars are like some of are down fifty percent from the ipo price so it's not to say that he can't lose money on this that's why w does seem to have more accurate market for what the true valuation of the set because some of the assets are trading below i can't chris gotcha let me okay and jack do you have a lot of bitcoin yeah mh and what what what's your take on bitcoin what's your like so i was into all of the different alt coins and stuff like when it was at the bubble a few years ago you could very easily see when the market was gonna crash because i went to a friend's wedding in england met this random guy and he's like oh yeah i just took a mortgage an extra mortgage on my house and put it all things tran for great and like what are you doing and then so that's what i said like when your taxi driver is giving you stock tips that's the time to get out of that market so for me now i'm buying for the long term by i only have bitcoin and ethereum okay that's great by the way i i did the same i went to a wedding in dc in my aunt who has a thick indian accent she tried to tell me about how great ethereum was and she's like ethereum i'm very good and i was like you know ethereum what what's so good about it she's like very good very good investment and i was like oh god so i came back i tried to sell every crypto i had and this when bitcoin was at three thousand so i i had gotten like a ten and i sold as much as coinbase would let me and i hit the limits and i'm so upset and it turned out to be a horrible move right if i just held it it would have done better which reminds me of i think your rule of thumb is absolutely right right they did it ran up to twenty thousand and then it crashed back down but there's another phrase or that goes around around money is the bubble that never pops is unlike other assets because there is no checks and balances around it like a stock can like tesla stock is like running up out of control and at some point they will have to deliver profits against that valuation and if they ever have a setback in their production and other profits or whatever it's gonna hurt their stock there is no revenue there is no profits of bitcoin the price is the stock the price is the profits and so the more the price that goes up the more people believe that this thing will keep going up and that is bitcoin my understanding is it's either in the top five or top ten of all currencies in the world right now in terms of assets in that currency so could easily become the number one held currency in the world is very appealing because it's not owned by any government or better i had a long talk with my wife last night because i told her how much bitcoin i've been buying over the last two weeks and she's like what what are you doing but she was more like why did you talk about this and i was like it's an investment i'm not buying things it's an investment and she's like that's like if i went and bought a house it didn't tell you and i was like no but this is an investment it's not like i'm buying things what sean did you ever or sell your house yes i did was it a blood bath yeah i lost like a hundred eighty k total oh oh well i mean yeah that sucks but like i would've have thought it would've been even worse well it's a suck right like you lose that out of your down payment so i lost like whatever twenty percent of the money i had in the in the property at i lost right it's a twenty percent loss it's not that sucks not great that's not great but like the way that i see the headlines now in san francisco it's like death and over in carnage i'm lucky that i got out at all i think it would've have gotten much worse that's what i'm saying i only had one offer i one offer and i took it and right what was it like a family or just a rich person or what yeah they are like kind of an exec wealth front and they're both execs at wealth front one's like the ten of whatever engineering or designed the ones that of been of design something like that i don't know they're both like kind of like top ish people at wealth front i guess so they they were unaffected you know by the but you know they weren't like the economy was not hurting their business necessarily right but it seems everyone else is getting the hell out of there yeah tough i mean everyone i know at least but yeah ran etf to be up to short san francisco now you're you talking i i really think jack i i'm surprised you're not in the spa game yeah i'm surprised you're not the guy with the etf in egypt or like you know oh but the thing about jack is he's got the iq and the ability to pretty much pull off all this stuff but he's missing one major component what's that component jack that you're missing you know what it is what i'm i'm social emotional i'm telling himself you're incredibly lazy okay as well you i i'll i'll say jack i'll say jack why don't you do this and the answer is always too much work they overboard on things that most people wouldn't lift a finger on didn't you like spend like a month building a a chair like an a super chair for yourself oh i didn't actually send you the photo i actually i i bought the all work now which is like the actual gotcha you guys a good yeah but specs i can't say anything but actually like speaks to me in like three months about specs oh okay okay great i love crazy crazy okay we should stop recording we should start talking them alright we should your wrap it up thanks for coming on man i appreciate it thank you