Page ID: Page 219365267025 How Liquid Death Turned Going Viral Into Millions in Sales
How Liquid Death Turned Going Viral Into Millions in Sales
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Ep. 441
Distribution is undefeated—and if you’re not building systems to measure real sales impact, you don’t have a business.
Kipp and guest Benoit Vatere (Liquid Death’s Chief Media and Digital Commerce Officer) dive into the untold story of Liquid Death’s explosive growth, and the critical role of full-funnel marketing systems behind the brand. Learn more on how to measure incrementality instead of just chasing ROAS, why big home-run tests matter more than small optimizations, and the approach to creative and channel strategy that actually builds both brand and revenue.
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Benoit Vatere https://www.linkedin.com/in/benoitvatere
Liquid Death https://liquiddeath.com/
Loop: Outlearn. Outmarket. Outgrow https://a.co/d/08By5k2w
Mike Cessario https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikecessario
Landman https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/landman/
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on the show today we have an incredible guest i wanna welcome bin benoit he is the chief media officer and digital commerce officer at liquid death and he is the best person i have ever met when it comes to talking about advertising and how you use advertising to jim real revenue he's built a full funnel media system he has unique creative equations that fuel that systems and he has a real methodical process for how creative and messaging maps to that system and we're gonna break down all of those for you on today show and he told me something but there is a certain metric that if you as a marketer or follow it you are destined to fail and the reality is most marketers follow that metric and so we're gonna tell you what that metric is we're gonna tell you how to avoid failure and how to think about your marketing spend in completely new and actionable ways benoit we are so excited to have you on the show today so benoit i think the story of liquid death in marketing circles has been told a ton and people know the skull they know kind of the origin story of mike and how that all came to be i think there's an untold story around liquid death that's way more important that no one knows or understands and that's the fact that you actually have figured out how to build remarkable systems and creative to actually drive sales it's not just like you didn't sell up these products because you're cool obviously being cool helped but you have to do real marketing over and over again to actually penetrate such a crowded market like you're in and so maybe just to kick us off give us your origin story like how the heck did you get to liquid death what was like the first thing you worked on and then from there i wanna go into kind of the systems and everything that we're gonna cover on the show today so yeah you you're completely right we've been talking over and over about our amazing creative machine liquid death but we've built a lot from that angle goal all the way down to cells so from my origin story and how i got to liquid it's actually a very i would say nonlinear way to get there i'm not are exactly i'm not a cp guys i'm a founder i'm a startup guy i build a lot of ad tech platforms over the years because i always from a media standpoint never had really what i wanted to buy media part early and dubai actually media other way i want which we're gonna talk about going from awareness all the way down to conversion and so the last platform that i built was a rebate redemption platform for measurement meaning i wanted to measure the impact of creators on social in retail sales brick and mortar does cool so i build an attribution platform which at the same time got me in front of liquid debt in the very early days before i actually leaving the water was in the can with mike cesar cecilia c and founder and over the years as i was building we always kept in touch big became fran and i was always here to kind of exchange ideas on the media side and then he came from exchanging ideas on the media side to becoming an official adviser and then also allowing me to really build a platform that we leverage with liquid debt that i was building and then from there we went from doing this to hey you need to come in full time to run the show when it comes to media and an acquisition and that's i joined as a as a chief media officer a little bit over two years ago now first of i think it's just such cool story around like creating situation just because you're were out building trying to solve a problem you had experienced firsthand you knew a bunch of other brands were experiencing people by the way still re really experiencing that problem but i imagine you took all of what you learned you brought that into liquid death and that was probably the foundation of the early systems because i think when it comes to liquid death people talk about the creative the design the aesthetic they don't talk about the distribution and to me like one of my mantra in life is distribution is undefeated like you you have to figure out distribution at a reasonable cost that works for your business or you don't have a business and it seems like to me like that's at the the core dna of who you are is you're trying to figure out distribution and build systems for distribution so you come into liquid death you kinda have this background like how do you get started how like how do you actually figure out what media to buy how do you figure out if it's working or not these are questions that everybody watching this is struggling with and so i wanna like hear how it started and kind of how it's evolved to where it is now for me first order of business was to understand where the money was spent and at what stage of the funnel so i came in with my full funnel approach from day one and now i started to categorize of that span so first i understand where we span how we span at what stage of the funnel categorize the whole thing now you start understanding hey we may spend too much on the one stage not enough on the other stage now in parallel i had to also understand if it was working or up right so measurement was another thing obviously the first measurement that you have access to is measurement on platform like on the amazon platform on meta you name it it's not perfect but it's least a single it's by the way that's been always my man trying and what i work with i don't need perfect i need signals yeah right yeah surgical support fiction this is important i think is hope for the right matrix the right confidence level you will never get it or it's gonna take forever to get it and by the time you get it it's over right so signals strengths up the signals is what matter and i was looking for that for now that i categorize my media mix what is working what is now working first i get in the platform and understanding and a lot of people in media pay attention to ro right mh because you weren't especially in the early days you wanna understand if when you spend money do you get money in return if i spend one dollar do i make three dollars off two or fifty cents right and people are start making decisions on that this is a a big issue if you do that here is why yes you want money we return on your investment but the other metrics that you need to pay attention to because i can't as a media buyer your drive very high return but those eye returns are actually fake what i mean by that is they are not incremental that means that the platform will tell you meta i will tell you you spent one dollar you made three the problem is those three dollars that you made that made us sense they were driving because someone clicked on a ad of you and an ad would have happened without the ad as well so you need to understand the incremental of your spend now this is a big word in media incremental and there's a lot of people talking about it and there's a lot of platform being done for me the best signal of incremental is i'm acquiring new people to the brand right so the youtube brand metric was very important as i was categorizing the efficiency of my media because i couldn't run incremental test on previous data i was gonna take me months an name of two years those kind of things that big brands do that will never get me where i need to be within the next couple weeks so when i start mapping raw with youtube brand i understand if the ross is high and the percentage of youtube brand is high that means that it is probably very incremental so now i can just triage my spend based on that filter now after that as i start i understand where i spend i understand the mix by final stage and i understand do i have some kind of incremental or not so that was the that was the beginning that that was the beginning so there's two key lessons there for anybody watching and what you just said the first is you wanted to move spend full funnel and you need to you wanted an audit spend and make sure the spend was full funnel when people think about brand dollars or creative dollars most consumer companies are just at the top of the funnel most b b companies are just at the bottom of the funnel and very few are very full funnel so that's i think having a full funnel media approach is something any company regardless of how smaller big you are can do the second thing that i think is even more important is what when you talked about the ro as plus new customers we covered a lot about today's show you probably have some questions we are giving you free additional resources to answer any of those you can scan that qr code or click the link in the description below and go get everything you need i've got a book coming out september called loop one of the core points in that book is this idea of creative equations that the marketers that win measure their marketing very differently and measure it very creatively and if you just measure the easiest thing to measure one it's probably wrong like ro and two it's highly competitive it's highly saturated everybody's doing stuff around the easiest stuff to measure which means you're paying way more for it than you should and so you gave us one creative equation are there other like creative equations that you've used over the years that you felt like really unlocked growth for the brand and unlock sales yeah i mean that's the one that actually i'm paying a lot of attention on right now which is the true incremental mentality and there is a lot especially in those days and probably a lot of listeners i've heard a lot of for example to doc shop or like social let's call it social commerce and i'm very curious about the impact of social commerce on true sales and you can see that maybe from social commerce that for me is mostly a discovery tool more than it is a scalable tool what is the impact on the scalable sales retail sales let's say on nav verizon amazon dot com or walmart dot com on target dot com we are by the way a brand that doesn't sell d two right we don't sell directly to customer on our website so that's why i'm not talking about it we only sell on retail our website but what i'm paying a lot of that attention in talking about this you know equation i'm looking at what i call now incremental ro right and so that means that this incremental rise and this is where it gets a little bit more technical and you need models and platforms but there's a a school of i've thought right now where we can get that data pretty quickly because models move or better yeah and i can understand if my incremental is true or not and so the incremental and maybe to try to simplify please for the audience is i look at a region two regions right like let's say la and new york and let's say they are very similar in terms of shoppers for me i'm gonna spend money in new york and not spend money in la and i'm gonna see if sales go up in new york and don't go up in in la and if it does i means that what i did in york works because if i didn't do it in la and it did if and it didn't move then that means that yes it worked so that's a very simple if people are very deep in incremental on the audience i'll say what is he talking about but this kind of the fundamentals right yeah is there incremental in sales with the media that you spend so that's something that i pay a lot of attention that i'm trying to actually simplify because out there there's a lot of complexity around that a lot of takes forever to do how can we shorten the cycle to test how can we get the data fast but i'm looking at the incremental reality that goes beyond what we talk about youtube brand and raw ass like true incremental adi when a buyer's ai for solution link do you know if you're showing up or not and hubspot we've got a great product that actually helps you get discovered in ai search hubspot au helps you show up in these moments with the right answers buyers are looking for before the first click before the first fill that's the moment hubspot au is built for go check out hubspot au you can trial it for free and it's gonna help you understand how you're showing up an ai search and how you can show up even more yeah so i think you're making a couple points here they're really important one that like innovations and data science and ai is making the ability to do these tests easier and faster and which is really changing advertising and media buying at its heart the second thing you're based saying is there's lots of different ways for something can be incremental right and you can look at incremental one channel versus the other one region versus the other the actual important part is actually setting up the experiment and having a thesis to know what am i actually trying to figure out and even if you have thousands of dollars you still can do small incremental mortality experiments to unlock insights right correct correct and and and i think that goes along with the other thing that i do a lot which is testing i test all the time not just for incremental but for any metrics that matters right so for example another one that is very important for me in the consideration stage which is the mid funnel meaning people discover your product and are intrigued and wanna try the product for me it's the efficiency of driving from someone that see your ad to go to your pdp right your product page on the retailer right on the dot com and this efficiency can be measured by click through rate yeah but click through rate can be me misleading and maybe i'm gonna go into too much details but i think it's important for on we want all the details here yeah right so click through rate is important but if you have a good click through rate on the ic it still drive a pretty expensive cost per click which leads to a pretty expensive cost to get someone to your product page of view so click through rate is not the only metric it's click through rate plus cpm which gets you to your cost per click now there is even more than that is cost per click usually correlate it with the cost to get people to go to the product page view because if you click usually you land on the product page but in the current world especially when you're on social or any platforms you have some kind of a loop happening may there's a pop up window know that says you're leaving this site there's a lot of that could happen that you don't aware that will get people to click but don't land on your product page so you need to measure that as well so that's why i look at a cost per product page view and that i test a lot to get to the most efficient metric here and that's takes a lot because again the levers there are a lot of different levers so my liver is a click through rate i need to test my click through rate my liver is the cpm because also if i have a i click through rate on the low cpm now i'm golden and i need to also leisure if there's any kind of drop off from the click to the product page right so i spend a lot of time testing all those different levers and when you test those levers are you getting small gains big gains like how do you know what tests to run and and if they're really all these tests to worth it i'm only looking at big gains yes i love this i'm only looking for home brands we are a brand that is in hyper growth mode i'm not looking for five percent gain i'm looking for double digit gains and i'm looking for even more than twenty percent gain every time that's why i need signal i don't need precise results because if your are other point was like hey i may get five percent but i need more clicks you understand if it's true i don't care if it's five percent let's move on right because five percent is not helping me now if you have a thirty percent gain you don't need a lot of data to get to thirty percent again you will get that very quickly it's either working or it's not yeah so i'm only going for the home run not for a single or double sorry for people that don't feel baseball but i'm i'm i'm i'm waiting for the fences every single time so i have this framework that i always use that it's basically a two by two and one axis is predictability and one axis is axis is magnitude and two often marketers get trapped in the highly predictable lobe magnitude quadrant of that where it's like i'm gonna i know this works i can predict it so i'm just gonna try to get a couple points better you're basically here telling us that is the completely wrong way to think about it you wanna buy i mean you want to be in the highest magnitude quadrant possible you could care less about predictability in the short term yes you want it to be predictable longer term but you what you actually care about is can i maximize my upside correct it's maximize the upside big swing because if i will have time to think about the single digit growth when we are massive right so right if you're are if you're are a multi billion dollar company that has been around for fifty years that the only goal is not to grow but to not lose market share then yes that's probably what you do you're looking for those single digit growth we are not that and i assume most of the people listening that no podcast podcasts are not that no everybody watching here founders their marketers they're in hyper growth mode and i think you gave us the right lens of focus is that you only need you only wanna run tests that are really high upside tests and the benefit of those is not only growth but you get to clarity of results much faster you get to statistical sniff it gets much faster so it's this double w of growth and a learning loop that runs much faster and nice running if you're under this and you are like for this in the test and the data is still not conclusive that means that it will it's it the the the the outcome will never be big so just move on correct okay so we talked a little bit about i think like the math and equations and testing side of your media machine give us your take on how you think about channels here's my rough overview the average marketer they get bombarded with media salespeople and they kinda listen to some of those salespeople and then they do the obvious things like facebook and google but how do you think about where you want to play when you're spending money and trying to build a brand that actually is gonna drive sales when i look at platform for me it depends on again what stage i'm at and what i'm gonna leverage it for for example let's start with the upper funnel right so awareness what i look for a platform that gives me awareness is ability to have eye frequency if i cannot drive eye frequency awareness s one work you won't get aware of a new product of a new brand unless you get in front of someone several times per week if the platform dictates the frequency without letting you play with it you are in trouble perfect example meta up meta won't let you dictate your frequency how can you do awareness without frequency especially in a meta environment of facebook on environment where you're bombarded with content so if you are showing up only once a week which most of the a dies one to one point five times a week and you're in the middle of a thousand pieces of contents nobody will remember right so in my opinion social is not for awareness period but ct tv radio podcasts all those channels are really good for awareness right and there are a lot of different reason now if i look for consideration now it's different i look for someone that is gonna let me optimize against what i say before against a click out yes and i need to be as close as i can to conversion because this is the next step so an example there meta may be good for that right because now i can have the a optimize against a click no problem i can do re retargeting which is even i'm plus amplifying your right your chance to click out now obviously also for me the platforms that i love all the platform where people convert which is amazon dot com walmart dot com target dot com those places are great so now i need to have those platforms work because now there i can get people to consider the product but also convert so for me it's really looking at what is the platform good at based on what i need do i need conversion do i need awareness and if i need any of those what are the levers that i need to control if they don't let me control then i won't touch it that is one of the best single breakdowns of how to think about where to play in advertising that i think i've ever heard because you included it in the outcomes and the goals you're trying to achieve as a marketer i think so many marketers are just like oh my customers on instagram i'm just gonna just spend some money there right and that is like the complete wrong way to think about it it's like you can reach your customers thousands of different ways what are the best couple ways for the goals that you have and for the stage of the process because we're here talking about how you actually use media to drive revenue which means you have to move people through the process which inherently means you need different types of media formats and different types of creative to actually make that happen and it strikes me that you all have actually built a really strong system with the typed type of equations we went over the type of strategy around how we built our media buying so the third part of that to me is like the creative and the messaging that fits inside those and it's really hard and i i think it's something that i as a cmo have struggled with a ton over the years because it's like oh my ceo has an idea my brand leader like you know five different people have an idea and i'm like i don't know what the right message is like how do you figure that out yeah everybody wants to be a marketer no matter what you've careful one to be a marketer until they have to run the website and all the terrible stuff that comes with theater marketer exactly well again i think it's very similar to the the answer that i gave around what platform i use it's the same for the creative it's i think each stage of the funnel as its own creative so if i go back to each stage of the fellow from an awareness standpoint the creative has to be about remembering the brand not remembering that yeah zero sugar not remembering that it's available at that very specific retailer it's to remember that we are liquid death and we are a healthy beverage company and even if i have to do that remembering that we are a beverage and are colleague liquid death so that's where also from a creative standpoint you cannot have everything in a single credit from where you are how much you cost what are the tvs like you cannot just plug it into all you need to have one focus so when i think about what i'm gonna run on ct tv i'm thinking about something that is gonna capture your attention and remember our name so for us we picked our lane which is comedy not an easy lane but this is all lane hard lane we mean exactly so trying to be funny and as we are funny people will remember and we do that through i think very creative campaign around people that is like that was crazy that was fun and now i remember the name i remember that beverage company does has some crazy ads now from there now that you remember me because the creative is strong from a remembering standpoint and i go with eye frequency so now people really remember now next time they see me which is most likely for me on social or the retailer i need to basically link the brand name with the benefits of the product so now i'm getting into couple different type of creative the creative are not anymore about remembering my brand now it's about telling them why the product is healthy why the product is affordable where to find it mh so now they can consider it and they at that point they can click it but if i try to turn a crazy creative funny into also telling them why the product is good and where they can buy it is not gonna happen right not possible write google's those too if they click on that and they land but they probably won't buy right away now i need to follow them through a lot of different tactics and re retargeting tactics now what do i say when i re target them well i probably not say the exact same thing i told them the first time around why they click because if you they click and you didn't convert why they didn't convert it so maybe now you start touching on very unique points so you get even more precise on what you touch now the next step is which we do a lot is people bought once but did repeat yet so although you target people that are lapse right mh and so at that point it's again a different messaging and so you see how i categorize my type of creative based again on the goal that i have and again for each one of them now i start doing a lot of different testing to see what weed drive when i meet yeah it really it's just it's like it's a grid of where the customers in the journey what the channels they're on and what the messaging they need per channel per stage of their journey to kinda help move them along and move them to the next and i think most of marketers i talk to you think about this creative media placement so much in isolation and they think about it as a campaign versus a system oh i have this thing i want the world to know i'm gonna go run this big campaign versus no i kinda know what i my place in the world i just need more people to believe it and i gotta build a system in march after that day after day month after month to get more and more people to know that correct like you you cannot have a campaign that as everything like i keep saying that and that's how i think a big problem that i will blame meta up for that is making you believe that you can do the full funnel in a single ad unit yeah and then there's always people that are trying to sound cool by saying yeah the funnel has collapse the funnel is shorter like the funnel will always exist you need to start getting aware of the brand you need to consider the brand and need you need to buy the brand now can you make that happen maybe faster maybe for some people but you still also people are gonna take a long time to go through those steps so you need to basically split those tests those steps sorry so you can really get the right platform and the right creative to go through those stages and i think what's interesting about what you just walked us through is that i think when a lot of people think of cool brand liquid death or something similar i think they imagine like glamorous video shoots and like long lengthy campaigns what you just described is it's actually just very tedious and very thoughtful and it's yeah it's the collision point of data and taste and understanding your customer and what moves them and yeah there's some cool shoots but that's like a small part of what actually it takes to sell something and i think of the average founder out there especially listening probably doesn't understand that right now no i agree and i and i think for that for also the early stage it's it's something very important i think i need to share here what you say is correct you need to this very tedious and understanding and yes there is the cold glamour photo like video shoot with like yeah celebrities and stuff that is happening and and and and it's important but you need to have everything else now what i would say for early stage founder because i run into this issue over and over and over and liquid death didn't run into that issue because of the type of marketers that our liquid death is if you chase conversion from day one you're gonna fail yes right so if your only metric is ka lt ratio you are gonna fail what is what because you have for your product for your brand always what i call the golden core you're always gonna have a certain amount of people that are gonna convert pretty fast on your product because y'all are those type of people that will engage fast won't wanna test fast and not gonna go in now this golden quartz as a certain size a million dollar revenue three million dollar revenue five or thousand revenue as you get out of this there's no more scale people at that point your c is gonna start rising you're gonna go do your your khaki ratio is gonna go upside down and now you're starting to say what am i doing oh the mid algorithm is not working anymore no no it's because the true people outside of this golden core are need a full funnel yeah and so where we need a liquid death that because of the type of creative people we add is from the very beginning we work with awareness we worked the awareness campaigns to know the brand it was a lot of morality on social it was a lot of what we talk about things that you will remember not about the benefits of the product but about the brand and that's a very uncomfortable thing to do because you cannot measure the dollar impact on this but if we don't do that you don't feed the top of the funnel if we don't feed the top of the funnel you have nobody to convert at the bottom right so i would say do that i love the show land man don't know if you watch land man taylor share i love it i it's great yeah like it's some of the best man writing and directing out there it's it's fantastic but it reminds you you're basically saying it's like hey i've got this oil will and i'm trying to extract all the oil possible from this well and at some point the well is gonna run dry right and like that's going to beef fundamental problem and you can't do it you feel like investing money on lt to c and highly highly converting media is a good way to not waste money and the reality is it's counterintuitive false right it's actually you are wasting money because you would get a lot of that revenue anyway and then you're afraid if you go spend awareness consideration dollars that you're wasting money and the reality is that's actually how you're building a base and driving money and it's it's like really important paradox and marketing that i think most people don't understand yeah and that's why i'm trying to say that to especially in early state right when you're very tight with cash and you have to be careful on how you spend and you have investors on your back telling you oh what was your ro what was your cat right that's gonna lead to trouble very very fast and so i know it's uncomfortable but pick your lane don't start with an ad made out that just tells us by my product because it's good stock with ads that will get people to remember you and this is a good reminder that investors are good investors they're not good marketers exactly and the other ones i believe all good marketers and not gonna give you all their ideas as we're closing out here pin benoit one of the things i i wanna know is you today if you had a time machine and it could go tell tell yourself when you first start liquid death like what would be the couple of things you're like you should just know this now it'll save you so much time pain it'll help you grow faster like what are the core lessons learned reach and as i preface of course it's for cp g guy so i we are cp so what i'm gonna say doesn't apply necessarily to non cp g folks but retail media is key for cp people right don't focus only on your d two focus not focus on on a shopify revenue focus on what you can drive at amazon at walmart at target and the dollars that you spend there can really turn into massive growth and so i wish i had paying more attention from day one in retail media i'm really deep in it but i wish i had done that before because there's a lot of a lot of impact and a lot of growth there one of the themes of the show today that's kinda of been unspoken that i wanna make sure we cover before we we we close out today is is sub of like marketers needing to give up control and that add units are very fragmented they're across all these platforms hey you're gonna sell a product like liquid three amazon through target not through liquid death dot com for the most part and most marketers i know like i need to get the visits to my website i need people to look at my product pages i want all the control like what advice you give to marketers around this topic like should they let go of control how should they evolve yeah i think for me is like two things you have to focus on where you think you can get school i love that right and that's goes with the let go of control because again same thing you may be misled on where you think the scale is you go where you have the most control which is most likely your shopify website but this is honestly necessarily where you get the most scale and where you get the most scale is morally where you get the least amount of control and that's where i think it's very important think about can you take it to big revenue through that channel now people like well that's the first step yeah that's the first step but if you only think about the first step you may not take the right first step right so think where you wanna go and so when letting control go that's where i would say that now where i would say don't let the control go it's on when you buy media there's a lot of problems right now with platforms that are trying to plug ai in so they do it all for you right especially for example i will bring that one because that one is driving me crazy is this notion of throw as many creative as you can meta and the will figure it out i don't want mega to decide what creative to get in front of each person for me i will decide because again for me consistency of creative matters because what meta us seeds is just one small fragment of the entire funnel so if i let made a play around with it then it's gonna this destroy my full funnel so let control go on where you need to scale and the channels to distribute take control over where you buy and now you love that and because the your incentives in and meta and all the other platforms incentives are not always the same right they're sometimes not but not always aligned so you want control to make sure you're using them in the ways that are aligned alright well bin benoit you have given us i think a master class and how to think about buying and building media systems to drive real revenue and to do that not at the expense building a brand but at the acceleration of building a brand which is actually how you build a big and remarkable company and i really deeply appreciate everything and thank you so much for being on marketing it's a great today thanks for wyoming me that was fun let me tell you about a great podcast demand decode from the team at b a b website and demand generation agency comes demand decode the podcast that breaks the mold of traditional b2b marketing tactics hosts dan and phil deliver actionable insights transform your marketing into a revenue generating machine whether you're struggling with linkedin ads that 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